What should Be Next on the Banned and Limted list???

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Tiso said:
Twig, that is the thing. The game did not need overpowered to broken cards, like D.D. in the first. It is the same Reasoning that we need even more broken or overpowered cards to maintain them, like Dark Hole. We needed Dark Hole because we do not have much in the department of mass monster removal, given how easily certain decks love to lay waste to things. Nobleman of Crossout is staying at one for the TCG. We do not have any of the other cards to justify it going back to 2. Tribe-Infecting Virus was game ending and broken. He will not be coming back and if he does, do not expect people to slap him in without their SiniSTAR since we know that little snake is not coming back.
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I don't know if you realize how little power Tribe-Infecting Virus has in this format. Managing your hand is a big issue and if you're looking to counter D.D. Monsters even more then sure enough it will counter the most commonly used monster type in the game - warriors monsters. It's not really game ending and it isn't really that broken. Sinister Serpent doesn't make Tribe good nor does it make it broken. The fact that Tribe even got banned was the large amount of Zombie, Warrior, Fiend, and other tribal decks being used.

Cards that are broken are needed in a game reguardless. Without some one-sided cards; this game would run very slowly. Cards like Fiber Jar should have had a "once per Duel" restriction in the effect like Twin-Headed Behemoth has in it, that way you can include other viable strategies in your deck.

In this format Tribe is more of an Anti-Meta card. It counters the "toolbox" monster selection that's splashed into decks; however, I will agree that Tribe-Infecting Virus isn't necessary in this format just yet. I might in a couple seasons. Sinister Serpent could come back. It was an "ok" card at best and didn't really hold much use in a deck other than Enemy Controller's second effect or for discard fodder. Honestly, double Night Assailant was much more effective than the green little snake ever was. The fact that Sinister Serpent won't ever return "if" Tribe returns. It makes the card's "brokeness" as you put it weaker. There's always solutions to cards like Tribe and Sinister. That solution would be not to bring them back at the same time.

In a meta that's heavy with Dekoichi, Magical Merchant, and other flip effect monsters or defensive monsters; Nobleman of Crossout becomes a nice choice to semi-limit again. We don't have Shield Crush (Japanese card) yet. With the average trap selection, you're seeing Sakuretsu and Widespread in large multiples being used. So you might be saying Crossout doesn't need to be left alone, why? Your Mystic Swordsman LV2 or Drillroid is going to hit Sakuretsu Armor or Widespread Ruin most likely. Not to mention people still use Enemy Controller in multiples as well as the single Book of Moon. Even Zaborg the Thunder Monarch gets main boarded here and there to help with that aspect. I just don't see your logic behind how Crossout shouldn't be semi-limited. As from what I've got in your comment about Crossout needing other cards to come out for it to merit returning to two doesn't add up.

If multiple decks contain multiple flip effects and it becomes a very powerful and viable deck concept to use. Then one would think the logical approach to this would be to semi-limit Crossout again. <shrugs> Just my opinion anyway. I'm not looking for acceptance; just readers. =P

Note: I'm assuming no one is taking me seriously when I disagree with you. These are opinions and everyone has their own opinions on how the Advanced Format lists can be changed. Expressing those opinions maturely and civilized shows professionalism. Getting angry in this kind of discussions is very easy to do; so don't assume you're being insulted when someone disagrees with you. Last thing to keep in mind is that this Note isn't directed towards any one individual or party(s).
 
Tkwiget said:
I don't know if you realize how little power Tribe-Infecting Virus has in this format. Managing your hand is a big issue and if you're looking to counter D.D. Monsters even more then sure enough it will counter the most commonly used monster type in the game - warriors monsters. It's not really game ending and it isn't really that broken. Sinister Serpent doesn't make Tribe good nor does it make it broken. The fact that Tribe even got banned was the large amount of Zombie, Warrior, Fiend, and other tribal decks being used.

Cards that are broken are needed in a game reguardless. Without some one-sided cards; this game would run very slowly. Cards like Fiber Jar should have had a "once per Duel" restriction in the effect like Twin-Headed Behemoth has in it, that way you can include other viable strategies in your deck.

In this format Tribe is more of an Anti-Meta card. It counters the "toolbox" monster selection that's splashed into decks; however, I will agree that Tribe-Infecting Virus isn't necessary in this format just yet. I might in a couple seasons. Sinister Serpent could come back. It was an "ok" card at best and didn't really hold much use in a deck other than Enemy Controller's second effect or for discard fodder. Honestly, double Night Assailant was much more effective than the green little snake ever was. The fact that Sinister Serpent won't ever return "if" Tribe returns. It makes the card's "brokeness" as you put it weaker. There's always solutions to cards like Tribe and Sinister. That solution would be not to bring them back at the same time.

In a meta that's heavy with Dekoichi, Magical Merchant, and other flip effect monsters or defensive monsters; Nobleman of Crossout becomes a nice choice to semi-limit again. We don't have Shield Crush (Japanese card) yet. With the average trap selection, you're seeing Sakuretsu and Widespread in large multiples being used. So you might be saying Crossout doesn't need to be left alone, why? Your Mystic Swordsman LV2 or Drillroid is going to hit Sakuretsu Armor or Widespread Ruin most likely. Not to mention people still use Enemy Controller in multiples as well as the single Book of Moon. Even Zaborg the Thunder Monarch gets main boarded here and there to help with that aspect. I just don't see your logic behind how Crossout shouldn't be semi-limited. As from what I've got in your comment about Crossout needing other cards to come out for it to merit returning to two doesn't add up.

If multiple decks contain multiple flip effects and it becomes a very powerful and viable deck concept to use. Then one would think the logical approach to this would be to semi-limit Crossout again. <shrugs> Just my opinion anyway. I'm not looking for acceptance; just readers. =P

Note: I'm assuming no one is taking me seriously when I disagree with you. These are opinions and everyone has their own opinions on how the Advanced Format lists can be changed. Expressing those opinions maturely and civilized shows professionalism. Getting angry in this kind of discussions is very easy to do; so don't assume you're being insulted when someone disagrees with you. Last thing to keep in mind is that this Note isn't directed towards any one individual or party(s).
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That is your opinion, but the majority will agree how deadly Tribe-Infecting Virus and Sinister Serpent were. They were in almost every Decks, for a good reason. Sinister Serpent was not a good card, it was the most CHEAPEST card there ever could be and YOU know it. Tribe-Infecting Virus is not good in this environment? No duh, it is banned along with the reason it was in everyone's Deck to begin with, Sinister Serpent. You can try to say they were not good or just plain ok cards, but that would just be very rushed opinion given the amount of play it had.

Next you say Sinister was "ok" and you give an use that I am sure most would never have used it in to begin with. Sinister Serpent was meant for Discarding, not using it with Enemy Controller. If anything, people who were using Enemy Controller would have just used a token from Scapegoat instead. The only reason people used Night Assailant in multiples was because it was a cheap card. Sinister was going to always come back if you wanted it. Night Assailant was used to abuse the mess out of discarding it, and getting your other Flip Monsters back, like say another Night Assailant. People used that over Sinister with Tribe, but that never took away Sinister's role. Both were overpowered cards, Tribe being game ending.

Lastly, you are going on about the current meta as if that means something. It does not. People are playing the cards that net them a win most of the time. We have no need for Tribe, Sinister, and abusing Night Assailant to kingdom come because of the simple fact we are the TCG version. Small card pool. Not enough cards to change the metagame. In the OCG would need Tribe-Infecting Virus.
 
I personally didn't think anything was deadly when it could be taken out with a well placed Bottomless Trap Hole or even a Trap Hole for that matter. Tibe bit the bullet more often then not in mosts duels I played with him in, whether the controler or the opponent. He's O-kay. But not broken. The only thing he's broken against is a deck that is type specific. But against anything else, he's just a hand depleter. He requires strategy. For something to be truley broken it must require little or no strategy for little or no cost.
 
Digital Jedi said:
I personally didn't think anything was deadly when it could be taken out with a well placed Bottomless Trap Hole or even a Trap Hole for that matter. Tibe bit the bullet more often then not in mosts duels I played with him in, whether the controler or the opponent. He's O-kay. But not broken. The only thing he's broken against is a deck that is type specific. But against anything else, he's just a hand depleter. He requires strategy. For something to be truley broken it must require little or no strategy for little or no cost.
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Bottomless Trap really does nothing to a Tribe-Infecting Virus. It still got its effect off in most cases anyway. Of course he required strategy, hence the multiples of Night Assailant, let alone Sinister Serpent. Oh and FYI, Enemy Controller is only used because of Drillroid now to the other poster. When it first came out it was average, then nobody cared about it when the new battle position rulings came in, and the second Drillroid comes out it becomes playable. What a surprise. Also, Jedi, you are forgetting something. Tribe-Infecting Virus was broken. How many Decks can you name off hand that almost everyone and their grandmother would play? Of them which Types are commonly in it? Warrior-Type being No. 1. Tribe was broken.
 
Tribe-Infecting Virus + Sinister Serpent not needeD. Tribe without Sinister would be fine. Sinister without Tribe would be fine. I never said the two together was horrible, sucked, or bad. The reason why the two cards were banned in the first place was not because everyone used them, but because everyone was using tribal decks. This I've already explained in my previous post. You say you don't use Enemy Controller with Sinister Serpent. Riight, tell that to the hundreds of players that did, if not a few thousand. I know it was used with Enemy Controller. You'll question that logic and before you do I'll just counter it.

Enemy Controller + Sinister Serpent = free monster they have. People in the last format used any means to gain an advantage over their opponent. As Sinister Serpent wasn't created for the intention of just "discard" effects/costs. Add tribute fodder (all kinds) to that list and now it would be completely correct.

You said, "Lastly, you are going on about the current meta as if that means something." and I'll comment on that. Do you think the ban lists are just winged every six months? They have to actually do some research in what is being played and come to some kind of decision on what restrictions should be placed on what cards. The current meta is what affects our ban list. So talking about what's happening in "this" meta is valid and useful information to consider in discussing the Advanced Format lists.

The whole Night Assailant abuse was dealt with. If Tribe-Infecting Virus comes back people will use Night Assailant (maybe). This doesn't mean that the cards will get a massive increase of play right away or even at all. It would thrive in Flip Flop Control (FFC) only because it usually contains at least 6+ flip effects right off the bat.



At least this isn't some huge flaming war or something. XD
 
There is a huge distiction between a broken card and broken combo. And I think we are overlooking that fact. Tribe, in of itself, was not fantastically broken. Especially when your opponent has multiple Types on the field. Combine him with Sinister and he gains some advatage. Pair them up agaist a deck with a single Type and they become broken.

But what we've ended up doing here is argue that tomatoes are not red, apples red. A broken combo does not make a broken card. Would anyone say Blue-Eyes White Dragon needs to be banned? How about if I summon him after playing Raigeki? Its the same logic. A combo only makes card interaction broken. But the truley broken cards are the ones who don't rely oin that intraction. Konami has banned/limited those right along with key cards that make up some of the afore mentioned combos, but that does not make the card itself inherently broken.
 
That's what I've mentioned indirectly. The two cards alone aren't that great really. Tribe didn't really need to be banned if Night Assailant is limited and Sinister is banned.

Another thing people often overlook is how the ban list is even changed. It's changed based off the previous format and how cards interacted with one another. Not looking at single cards and giving them that "broken" label. I'm sure if Spirit Reaper and Gravekeeper's Spy weren't in the game people wouldn't think Mobius is such a broken card. Like DJ said, "But the truley broken cards are the ones who don't rely oin that intraction." and that holds truth to most of the cards in Advanced Format.

That's why reflecting on the current meta/format is a good idea. Gives you a stronger and more accurate prediction of what might happen to the lists. Of course, all of it would be speculation.
 
Precisely... and given simple facts like that can make you realize which cards are definitely never coming out of the ban list (ie: Monster Reborn, Raigeki, Harpies Feather Duster, etc.)

Somehow I feel that Breaker is a very potential ban candidate, because of simple no drawback advantage facts.
 
slither said:
Precisely... and given simple facts like that can make you realize which cards are definitely never coming out of the ban list (ie: Monster Reborn, Raigeki, Harpies Feather Duster, etc.)

Somehow I feel that Breaker is a very potential ban candidate, because of simple no drawback advantage facts.
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What i think what it comes down to is weather Konami and UDE make cards that make it eaiser to counter these cards.
 
Tkwiget said:
That's what I've mentioned indirectly. The two cards alone aren't that great really. Tribe didn't really need to be banned if Night Assailant is limited and Sinister is banned.

Another thing people often overlook is how the ban list is even changed. It's changed based off the previous format and how cards interacted with one another. Not looking at single cards and giving them that "broken" label. I'm sure if Spirit Reaper and Gravekeeper's Spy weren't in the game people wouldn't think Mobius is such a broken card. Like DJ said, "But the truley broken cards are the ones who don't rely oin that intraction." and that holds truth to most of the cards in Advanced Format.

That's why reflecting on the current meta/format is a good idea. Gives you a stronger and more accurate prediction of what might happen to the lists. Of course, all of it would be speculation.
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Not fantastically broken, but still broken none the less. What everyone is failing to realize that you are assuming EVERYONE had a different Type on the field, which is not true. Only the real hybrid Decks would have that. The other Types most Decks would come from would not even warrant a consideration since they are mostly stacked with more Warrior-Type, like D.D. Warrior Lady, Exiled Force, D.D. Assailant, Blade Knight, Mystic Swordsman LV2, Marauding Captain, Goblin Attack Force. Then we have the other types in those Deck that hardly qualify a Tribe to hit it.

As for the person who said Tribe did not need to be banned? Hello, TCG. It had to be banned. Let us just forget that the OCG has more cards to counter and need Tribe to counter and let us go over the fact that with Tribe still in the TCG we would never have a theme Deck of any kind because of it. You want a pure Warrior Deck, ok, Tribe. You want a pure Machine Deck, ok Tribe. You want to make a Dinosaur Deck, ha ok Tribe. Not happening. That was one of the main reasons UDE banned it. To give other Decks a chance. It is not banned in the OCG because they need as much monster removal as possible given the stuff they have. We in the TCG have enough. Dark World would just be stopped by Royal Oppression or Bottomless Trap Hole. Even the overlooked Special Hurricane would have handled them.
 
Tiso said:
Not fantastically broken, but still broken none the less. What everyone is failing to realize that you are assuming EVERYONE had a different Type on the field, which is not true. Only the real hybrid Decks would have that. The other Types most Decks would come from would not even warrant a consideration since they are mostly stacked with more Warrior-Type, like D.D. Warrior Lady, Exiled Force, D.D. Assailant, Blade Knight, Mystic Swordsman LV2, Marauding Captain, Goblin Attack Force. Then we have the other types in those Deck that hardly qualify a Tribe to hit it.

As for the person who said Tribe did not need to be banned? Hello, TCG. It had to be banned. Let us just forget that the OCG has more cards to counter and need Tribe to counter and let us go over the fact that with Tribe still in the TCG we would never have a theme Deck of any kind because of it. You want a pure Warrior Deck, ok, Tribe. You want a pure Machine Deck, ok Tribe. You want to make a Dinosaur Deck, ha ok Tribe. Not happening. That was one of the main reasons UDE banned it. To give other Decks a chance. It is not banned in the OCG because they need as much monster removal as possible given the stuff they have. We in the TCG have enough. Dark World would just be stopped by Royal Oppression or Bottomless Trap Hole. Even the overlooked Special Hurricane would have handled them.
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All interesting points. I disagree, though, with the insinuationt that Tribe makes it difficult to run Type Decks. This term "hybrid" did not exist when I started the game, as the predominent type of deck focused more on the effect interacton of cards as opposed to to Type or Attribute themes. So Tribe was great, but often got traded more then it got played. Only since the release of the Structure Decks have people been leaning more heavily towards the thematic decks, which is where some of the new CCs have been born. But these decks have a great deal of advantages, however any card you name that is powerful against one type cannot really be labeled broken if it isn't poerful against all types, even if they are prediominent. Lets take my Jank Deck for example. It absolutly... what's the word?... "pwns?"... Beatdown Decks. Controle Decks have nothing to control against my deck. It's truley broken ... against those types. However when I face the differnt types of Warrior Decks, then it actually makes those decks run faster then they normaly would. Suddenly they become the "broken" deck. he problem is we've thrown this word "broke" around for so long we never bothered to put th true meaning on it it should have had. At this rate, anything will be broken as long as you win with it. "I attack you with a Cat's Ear Tribe for game." I won so now my deck is broken? No. A broken or overpowered card is one that is all advantage and no drawback. A broken combo is a combo that is all advantage, little drawback and ease of use. A broken deck is a deck with broken cards and/or combos utilized in optimum fashion. But it's relative. If more people run theme decks over another that still doesn't make the combo more or less broke. It just makes it more advantageous. It's really a players fault for running the theme in the first place. If I DNA Transplant the field with Molten Destruction in play, then I have no one to blame but myself.
 
Digital Jedi said:
All interesting points. I disagree, though, with the insinuationt that Tribe makes it difficult to run Type Decks. This term "hybrid" did not exist when I started the game, as the predominent type of deck focused more on the effect interacton of cards as opposed to to Type or Attribute themes. So Tribe was great, but often got traded more then it got played. Only since the release of the Structure Decks have people been leaning more heavily towards the thematic decks, which is where some of the new CCs have been born. But these decks have a great deal of advantages, however any card you name that is powerful against one type cannot really be labeled broken if it isn't poerful against all types, even if they are prediominent. Lets take my Jank Deck for example. It absolutly... what's the word?... "pwns?"... Beatdown Decks. Controle Decks have nothing to control against my deck. It's truley broken ... against those types. However when I face the differnt types of Warrior Decks, then it actually makes those decks run faster then they normaly would. Suddenly they become the "broken" deck. he problem is we've thrown this word "broke" around for so long we never bothered to put th true meaning on it it should have had. At this rate, anything will be broken as long as you win with it. "I attack you with a Cat's Ear Tribe for game." I won so now my deck is broken? No. A broken or overpowered card is one that is all advantage and no drawback. A broken combo is a combo that is all advantage, little drawback and ease of use. A broken deck is a deck with broken cards and/or combos utilized in optimum fashion. But it's relative. If more people run theme decks over another that still doesn't make the combo more or less broke. It just makes it more advantageous. It's really a players fault for running the theme in the first place. If I DNA Transplant the field with Molten Destruction in play, then I have no one to blame but myself.
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Those Theme Structures are a gimmick. The majorty is not seriously using them to win tournies. You will never see a FIRE Deck win a worlds. The Water Deck is the only Deck playable, but when you factor in that Cursed Seal of the Forbidden Spell will nerf A Legendary Ocean, let alone a Dust Tornado. The Spellcaster Deck should not even be considered given the fact Spellcasters were already a dominating Deck in the OCG to begin with. The only thing the structure did was given them more of a reason to be nasty.
 
Tiso said:
Those Theme Structures are a gimmick. The majorty is not seriously using them to win tournies. You will never see a FIRE Deck win a worlds. The Water Deck is the only Deck playable, but when you factor in that Cursed Seal of the Forbidden Spell will nerf A Legendary Ocean, let alone a Dust Tornado. The Spellcaster Deck should not even be considered given the fact Spellcasters were already a dominating Deck in the OCG to begin with. The only thing the structure did was given them more of a reason to be nasty.
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That's not was I was insunuating, however. What I'm saying is that the Structure Decks have been responsible for more people building more thematic decks whereas before them, the so-called "hybrid" deck was the most common.
 
thats true, i remember back when the deck area was filled with Hybrids.

Hybrid this, Hybrid that. I did a few Hybrids my selfs etc... It was a really fun game era :D

now its all. were doing raw warriors, or were doing raw beasts. etc..
 
Complex_Mind said:
Sinister Serpent let cards like Lightning Vortex thrive, it was a great card. But I believed when I saw Yellow Spring Frog coming out in SOI, that Sinister Serpent is going to remain at peace for a long time.
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Sinister was what made the discard cards good like Magic Jammer, Lightning Vortex, and so on. The second it is gone those cards are sub-par, average, or just plain sucky now. Go figure. The frog that was being called a SiniSTAR replacement will almost never be played that way. Monarchs, meet your next best friend, this cute little frog. That is how it will be played for the most part.
 
that frog comes to the field not hand. I still dont see what advantage you would get unless your running soul control or tribute style deck.
 
krazykidpsx said:
that frog comes to the field not hand. I still dont see what advantage you would get unless your running soul control or tribute style deck.
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You just answered your question. SiniSTAR was for hand, Frog would be field, and ultimate Tribute fodder. Monarchs would almost always have something to Tribute regardless of Soul Control.
 
Oh defently, the only thing i dont like is that you cannot have a backrow. If you have anything back there then it wont return. that leads to playing stuff that you know the opponent will activate.

Its good, actually it would be a preaty nifty concept, NO s/t during your Stand by.
 
Obviously, if many people are still complaining about cards that should be taken out of the ban list, then obviously they may not that good of a duelist. Cards are banned because, they have relatively no drawbacks, cost, or little consequence associated with them. First and foremost, theme decks consisting of monster types were made long before the Structure Decks.

For the most the new Structure Decks should only be played, as decks. It is better to have a format in which they allow beginning players, to play the structures. As for the ban list, Breaker does not need to be banned, its not even that great. People are forgetting about the counters that can easily be used against it, such as Solemn Judgment, and trap Exhausting Spell. Tribe had to be banned to allow monster type decks, to be existence, and it had a cheap, easily affordable cost to destroy monster types.

Limiter Removal should be unrestricted. Cyber Dragon does not need to be restricted. In addition to that, you will need 3 Cyber's for the Fusion, even with the substiitute in SOI. What players need to do is to learn how to play their cards more wisely and effectively, so that the one turn kill with Cyber End Dragon, does not happen. After a while it losing does become your fault. The fact that a player, can draw two random cards, without a consequences is broken enough as is.

D.D. cards are overrated as is. And if players were using their brains, then they would have known that the removal ability can also serve as a disadvantage to the owning player.

Mirror Force should be unbanned. Dark Hole and Heavy Storm should be banned. Snatch Steal should be banned, because it can really easily be played as another Change of Heart, since the card can be tributed, Falling Down has the same problem. Ring of Destruction is a matter of timing when played, and should be unbanned as well. Remember both players lose life, it may not always happen with the Barrel Combo, depending on if they draw the card. As long as a card has no consequences or little drawbacks, then it should be banned.

With Graceful Charity, if a player takes out two cards from their starting hand of six cards, and draws two more cards with Pot of Greed, it allows a player to get five cards from their deck, that greatly thins out the player's deck, just like Mirage did with no consequence and increases their chances for victory too easily. Remember, that there is about 2.5% chance for each card in a 40 card deck. Now imagine you going first, and doing the same Pot and Graceful Combo with the starting hand.

In the starting hand you have six cards, and yours odds of victory are 15%. After playing the Pot and Graceful Combo, by getting exactly five cards from your deck you get a 27.5% drawing your need, and obtaining victory. After playing a D.D. Capsule, probability of victory increases by 30%, at that point you deck is thinned out by almost a third, now imagine that with Mirage of Nightmare.

Hopefully, this will help people appreciated, the great depths of strategy in the TCG, as well as the difficulty of attempting powerful one-turn kills with Power Bond are harder than people think.

There are plenty of cards to thwart the main threats with many Top-Tier decks. (Clue: Many of these cards are commons, if you just look hard enough, instead of complaining about losing). It is unfair to say a card should be banned, just because so many people are playing that card. If you want to know some alternatives, to many of the dangerous cards, I'll be more than glad to lend my advice.
 
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