Gearfried (both) questions/issues

S

skey23

Council of Heroes
Ok, we've been getting a lot of questions about "Blast with Chain" and "Gearfried the Iron Knight". We've had several discussions about how everything works. But something just popped into my head that has me wondering. Since I didn't want to muddy up anybody else's specific posts, I decided to voice my 'wonders' here.

Do we consider the effects of "Gearfried the Iron Knight" and "Gearfried the Swordmaster" to be pretty much identical effects, except for what they destroy?

Let's look at their text, shall we...

"Gearfried the Iron Knight" - "When an Equip Card is equipped to this card, destroy the Equip Card."

"Gearfried the Swordmaster" - "This card cannot be Normal Summoned or Set. This card cannot be Special Summoned except by the effect of "Release Restraint". When this card is equipped with an Equip Card, destroy 1 monster on your opponent's side of the field."

Ok, so when either is equipped with an Equip Card, their effects activate and attempt to destroy something.

If we consider them pretty much the same, then let's look at this ruling for "Gearfried the Swordmaster".
The effect of "Gearfried the Swordmaster" is a Trigger Effect that can be chained to, starting a new chain after the current chain resolves. You can chain "Divine Wrath" to the activation of this effect.
Click to expand...
It doesn't say it can interrupt a chain resolution. It says it WILL start a new chain AFTER the current chain resolves.

So WHERE did we get the idea that "Gearfried the Iron Knight" can interrupt a chain resolution? I searched the Judge's List for all references to "Gearfried" and didn't find anything related to this. Is this another BKSS?

Let's look at "Divine Wrath" .vs both of these monsters. Based on the ruling I quoted, you can chain "Divine Wrath" and destroy "Gearfried the Swordmaster", even if he is equipped mid-chain because his effect waits for the chain resolution.
If we go by what's being said (myself included) about "Gearfried the Iron Knight", then you would NOT be able to use "Divine Wrath" against his effect if activated mid-chain since his effect would activate and resolve between the steps of the chain, and "Divine Wrath" wouldn't be able to interrupt that chain resolution.

What does everybody else have to say about this?
 
Sort by date Sort by votes
Um... weird.
There is a slight difference in the wording: Iron Knight's effect activates when the card is equipped, Swordmaster's effect activates when the card itself is succesfully activated and resolved. At last, that is the way I read it.
But if it really is, I think that makes the difference between those two.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
What I think it boils down to is a lot of us "old timers" remember the old Netrep files. Scary enough, I still have them. 8^D Netrep 6.0b has the ruling that Gearfriend's effect is continuous, which provides all the context that we use with the rulings to date.

However, the Netrep files were never considered "law" just as the judge's list I think is technically not considered "law". The only things considered "law" is the UDE FAQ and those things that grift off it (such as RONIN [mad props yet again]).

That always makes people iffy. If a bunch of L3s come together to form enough of a consensus that Gearfried's effect is continuous, yet it never shows up in the UDE FAQ, how do you rule it? A lot of the rulings we have is more the "wisdome from above" as opposed to cold fact, though a lot of times they are VERY closely releated.

Ick, that was babble. All that goes to say that the "original" argument about Gearfried being continuous comes from some very old discusssions and documentation on the matter and we have yet to get an update on them today.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Also, the text on the Iron Knight has been changed from it's original form.

Originally it stated "if the card is equipped,..." (or something close to that)...which is more of a conditional existance effect...making it Continuous.

The new text, is written as a Trigger Effect, so maybe they decided to change it, to make it identical to the Swordmaster.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
skey23 said:
Ok, so when either is equipped with an Equip Card, their effects activate and attempt to destroy something.

If we consider them pretty much the same, then let's look at this ruling for "Gearfried the Swordmaster".
It doesn't say it can interrupt a chain resolution. It says it WILL start a new chain AFTER the current chain resolves.

So WHERE did we get the idea that "Gearfried the Iron Knight" can interrupt a chain resolution? I searched the Judge's List for all references to "Gearfried" and didn't find anything related to this. Is this another BKSS?

What does everybody else have to say about this?
Click to expand...
With Gearfried, you arent selecting anything. It has to destroy a card that equips to him.

With Swordmaster, once he is equipped, his effect activates and you must choose a monster to destroy. If its in the middle of a chain resolution, its almost the same as flipping a face-down Royal Oppression face-up and trying to pay for it at the same time before it resolves.

I think it boils down to the fact that whenever you have to select a target from a triggered effect while you are resolving a separate chain, you must first wait to finish the first chain before resolving the new one, as your opponent must be allowed to activate an effect to chain to Swordmaster's effect, like Compulsory Evacuation Device or Interdimensional Matter Transporter.

EDIT: Which means that even if you chain Blast with Chain to gearfried it will only destroy Blast with Chain, and BWC's effect will not resolve until the complete resolution of the current chain.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Woah... woah!

There is only 1 effect that actually activates and "inserts" itself into the current chain...Big Shield and Mid-Shield. And frankly, they should have never done that, because it makes absolutely no sense and makes explaining it ridiculous.

Gearfried does not work the same way, even if it is a Trigger Effect. The actual Equip must fully equip first (resolve), before it can be destroyed.

In both cases, Iron Knight or Swordmaster, they activate in a new chain, after the current one resolves.

Targeting has nothing to with it.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
No one said targeting had anything to do with it. The point is, you cant start a chain within a chain.

If you could use Swordsmaster's effect to destroy a moster before the current chain resolved, then it probably never would.

Player A activates Call of the Haunted and selects Jinzo

Player B activates Blast with Chain and selects his Gearfried the Swordmaster

Player A chains Wall of Revealing Light and pays 3000 life points

Player B chains Mystical Space Typhoon to destroy WoRL

RESOLVE (The screwed up way)

Player B's MST resolves and destroys Wall of Revealing Light

Player A's Wall of Revealing Light is destroyed, effect Disappears

Player B's Blast with Chain resolves and Swordmaster's effect activates. Player B selects Player A's Horus the Black Flame Dragon LV8

Player A activates Interdimensional Matter Transporter and selets Horus LV8

Player B chains Royal Decree....

Now, we have gone off on a tangent and we have yet to resolve Call of the Haunted.

All I was saying is that its "obvious" that you cannot resolve Gearfried the Swordmaster's effect when it activates in a resolving chain.

And I know that Horus LV8 negates Spells, but it's more for dramatic effect (I could use Dust Tornado, and LV8's effect isnt mandatory anyway).
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Lets assume i agree and the Iron Knight's effect is a true Trigger Effect (creates a Chain Link).

Illustration:

[Chain Link 1] Snatch Snatch (target -> Gearfried)
OP Pass
TP Pass

* At this point you resolve the current chain first, equipping SS.

resolve...

[Chain Link 1] Snatch Steal (equips to Gearfried)

* the previous chain resolving creates a response timing, and that is where Gearfried's effect is placed.

{Response Chain}

[Chain Link 1] Gearfried the Iron Knight

etc...etc...
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
masterwoo0 said:
No one said targeting had anything to do with it. The point is, you cant start a chain within a chain.

If you could use Swordsmaster's effect to destroy a moster before the current chain resolved, then it probably never would.

Player A activates Call of the Haunted and selects Jinzo

Player B activates Blast with Chain and selects his Gearfried the Swordmaster

Player A chains Wall of Revealing Light and pays 3000 life points

Player B chains Mystical Space Typhoon to destroy WoRL

RESOLVE (The screwed up way)

Player B's MST resolves and destroys Wall of Revealing Light

Player A's Wall of Revealing Light is destroyed, effect Disappears

Player B's Blast with Chain resolves and Swordmaster's effect activates. Player B selects Player A's Horus the Black Flame Dragon LV8

Player A activates Interdimensional Matter Transporter and selets Horus LV8

Player B chains Royal Decree....

Now, we have gone off on a tangent and we have yet to resolve Call of the Haunted.

All I was saying is that its "obvious" that you cannot resolve Gearfried the Swordmaster's effect when it activates in a resolving chain.
Click to expand...
That's fine, i just got the impression that it was assumed that Gearfried the Iron Knight's effect would piggyback into the current chain, as opposed to the Swordmaster's...which is of course doesn't. The logic used was that it was because it was targeted.

Your explaination here, i agree with. Targeting requires an activation, and that would have to occur in response.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Hmm, so now I'm getting confused. Is Gearfried's effect continuous or triggered, because we can have some serious ramifications either way, taking the old Blast with Chain during damage calculation example into play.

Let's say Gearfried is attacking Archfiend Soldier and we reach the damage step.

If Gearfried's effect is continuous continuous, then BWC will be destroyed immediately and Gearfriend will die in battle.

If Gearfried's effect is triggered then we finish damage calculation before destroying BWC, Gearfried will not die, and then the controller will get to destroy another card.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Absird said:
I agree because if Spirit Reaper is equiped but Dust Tornado is Chained he is destroyed.
I also beleive you can Divine Wrath Gearfried the Iron Knight
Click to expand...

Actually, that's no true. Spirit Reaper checks upon successfull resolution to see if he's been the target of a card. For example. I activate Axe of Despair and target my opponent's Spirit Reaper. Reaper isn't immediately destroyed, although he has been targeted. My opponent chains Dust Tornado, targeting Axe of Despair.

When we resolve, Dust Tornado destroys Axe of Despair. Axe of Despair now does not equip itself to Spirit Reaper, so Spirit Reaper isn't destroyed because the card that targeted him never successfully resolved.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
There is only one card Gearfried the Iron Knight cannot destroy. All others are toast.

With that said, is there ever a point in time, other than when Skill Drain is active, that he "will not" destroy a equip card? So, as long as he is face-up, he will destroy Equipped Cards.

Now, because his effect only takes place when the card resolves, and not at activation, that stands to reason that his effect, while continuous, only triggers at the resolution of an Equip Card, and not the activation.

Raging Flame Sprite is a continuous effect as well, but doesnt her effect "trigger" when she attacks directly?? Or else she would just gain 1000 for being on the field.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Yeah, I think that's the confusion people are running into. They make the blanket assumption that continuous effects are the only ones that are in a format of "While this card remains on the field..." (such as Jinzo) or "This card is treated as Harpy Lady" (for the variants). However, there are other effects that are continuous and not chainable which can be confusing in their wording (such as Giant Orc, the LP infliction of Mefist, and Flame Sprite).
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top