I need a recap on Dark World...

[Tkwiget]

I'm pretty sure I'd rule correctly on these situations. Just want to make sure.

Situation A

Turn Player has Goldd, Wu-Lord of Dark World and Sillva, Warlord of Dark World in his hand. Player B has a Set Bottomless Trap Hole. Turn Player activates Card Destruction. Card Destruction resolves completely. Goldd, Wu-Lord of Dark World and Sillva, Warlord of Dark World are Special Summoned to the field. Player B responds by activating Bottomless Trap Hole. Both Goldd, Wu-Lord of Dark World and Sillva, Warlord of Dark World are destroyed and removed from play.

Situation B

Turn Player has an active Royal Oppression on the field. Player B has three Goldd, Wu-Lord of Dark World in his hand. Turn Player activates Card Destruction. All of the Goldd, Wu-Lord of Dark World activate at the same time to Special Summon onto the field. The Turn Player activates Royal Oppression to pay 800 Life Points to negate the Special Summoning of all three Goldd, Wu-Lord of Dark World.

Situation C

Turn Player has a Set Morphing Jar with three copies of Broww, Huntsman of Dark World in his hand. Turn Player Flip Summons his Morphing Jar and discards all three copies of Broww, Huntsman of Dark World. The Turn Player first draws his five new cards from Morphing Jar's effect and then draws one card per copy of Broww, Huntsman of Dark World that he discarded from Morphing Jar's effect.


Am I correct on all three of these situations? The first two situations I'm ruling on like that because Goldd, Wu-Lord of Dark World, Sillva, Warlord of Dark World, and Biiege, Vanguard of Dark World don't trigger their special summoning effect when entering a game phase, like Vampire Lord.

I've got a regional coming up that I'm judging and I need a recap on these situations. =)

 

[anthonyj]

Yes, please if you haven't been present for past debates understand we aren't mad at one another. We are expressing our understanding of the game mechanics and rulings in order to come to a better understanding of what truth is at the center of the debate. We may take opposing sides but aren't attempting to slander one another or PM them with threats or any such nonsense. These aren't flame wars, they are in depth discussions on aspects of the game that don't receive nearly enough attention from the folks that have the authority to write a comprehensive rule book. There may be some urgency involved as neither of us wishes for anyone reading the thread to come away with the wrong interpretation and thus start playing the game incorrectly based on something they found here. And that I believe is the essence of being here. We all want the game known and understood. We'd all be ecstatic to see more truth and detail posted to the "Official" web page. But in that absence we'll do our utmost best to have everything possible here for those that are looking for it. That is how I wound up here, after searching through the Official web site and having more questions than answers, you typically bounce around from site to site trying to find how the game is played. I landed here and found the people who could answer the questions. Or at least had the knowledge to dissect the questions and cross reference them against the answers that were provided "officially".

 

[masterwoo0]

Here, here!! I have no reason to be upset with Anthonyj. He's one of the individuals, like many here, that have grown in knowledge as a member of this site, just as much as the site has grown.

We all have a unique way of bringing something to the table here, and that, as long as its done respectfully, should be encouraged as much as possible.

 

[masterwoo0]

THAT IS WHAT THIS HAS BEEN ABOUT THE WHOLE TIME? I could have told you all this since a few posts ago.

Also, this isnt what it's been about, but I really dont think anyone is looking at this from the point of view that it should be, maybe even myself.

Priority gives the Turn Player certain options when he summons a monster.

Priority allows him/her (depending on the effect in question) to activate a Spell Speed 2 effect, or, activate an Ignition Effect of a monster that was previously summoned, or the monster "just" summoned.

Now, having said that, this should only occur upon a summon, which becomes an "event".

Bottomless Trap Hole cannot be activated prior to a summon. You cannot activate Bottomless Trap Hole on your opponents monster in hand because it has yet to be summoned. The monster in question must hit the field.

We'll use Gemini Elf in this example and stay off Jinzo for now....

Player A has no monsters on the field and Gemini Elf in hand, with Seven Tools of the Bandit set.

Player B has no monsters, a face-down Bottomless Trap Hole and Solemn Judgment set.

Player A declares at the beginning of Main Phase 1 that he will summon Gemini Elf to the field, placing it face-up in his Monster Zone.

Player A does not use turn player priority to activate any Spell Speed 2 effects and passes to Player B.

Player B activates Bottomless Trap Hole to the summon of Gemini Elf.

Now Gemini Elf, based upon cards on the turn players side of the field, was only going to allow the turn player to "summon", and pass priority, because he had no other effects to activate.

Player B had two choices at this point. Activate Solemn Judgment, or Bottomless Trap Hole. Player B chose Bottomless Trap Hole, to which Player A could have responded with Seven Tools of the Bandit.

Player A choses not to continue the chain. Bottomless Trap Hole resolves, destroying the summoned monster and removing it from play. Player A's monster was not summoned successfully as it is no longer on the field, but it was summoned.

Bottomless Trap Hole
Normal Trap

When your opponent Normal Summons, Flip Summons, or Special Summons a monster(s) with an ATK of 1500 or more, destroy and remove from play the monster(s).

Nowhere does it say in Bottomless Trap Hole's effect that the summon must be successful in order to activate. Just that the monster must be "summoned".


Example number next...

Same scenario.

Player A summons Gemini Elf in face-up attack. Player A has no Spell Speed 2 effects that they can immediately activate and passes priority to Player B

Player B activates Solemn Judgment to negate the summon and destroy the monster.

Player A does not continue the chain.

Solemn Judgment resolves and destroys the summoned monster.


Now, lets look at a monster that offers turn player priority.

Player A has Tribe-Infecting Virus and Sinister Serpent in hand, with Seven Tools of the Bandit set.

Player B has Gemini Elf and Skilled Dark Magician face-up on the field, with Solemn Judgment set.

Player A declares at the beginning of Main Phase 1 that he intends to summon Tribe-Infecting Virus face-up in attack and places him on the field. Player A then declares that they will use turn player priority to activate Tribe-Infecting Virus' effect and discard Sinister Serpent from hand to the Graveyard to destroy all face-up Spellcasters on the field.

Now, this is where it either goes right, or wrong.

Player B chains Solemn Judgment to Tribe-Infecting Virus effect to negate the summon and destroy the monster.

At this point, the last thing to occur was the summon of Tribe-Infecting Virus.

Solemn Judgment resolves, negating the summon of Tribe-Infecting Virus' AND since his summon was negated, his effect does NOT activate and no Spellcasters are destroyed.

Now, how can Bottomless Trap Hole and Solemn Judgment NOT have the same timing?

If you read the effect of Bottomless Trap Hole, once again, it never states that a monster must be successfully summon in order to activate the effect, just summoned. I believe the older text may have stated that.

But, what is a successful summon other than "a monster remaining on the field after all responding effects have been activated and resolved."

We already know that a monster does not have to remain on the field to resolve an effect that they activated. But, unless the summon was negated or the effect requires a face-up monster to complete the resolution, it doesnt matter that the monster's summon was not successful, BUT, it was not negated.

If you change it around to say, summon a monster with an Ignition Effect, but activate the effect of a previously summoned monster, Solemn Judgment should still be able to chain to that effect, and destroy the summoned monster, but the effect of the previously summoned monster will still resolve successfully.

Jinzo, can only affect the field if he is successfully summoned. Solemn Judgment prevents the successful summon even of Jinzo. The Turn Player would retain priority, but would have to negate the effect of Solemn Judgment to allow Jinzo to remain on the field.

 

[Tiso]

Why would Player A pass priority? He does not even retain priority if his opponent has a Spell Speed 3 to activate first. I was more comfortable with Skey's explainations.

 

[Tkwiget]

Why would Player A pass priority? He does not even retain priority if his opponent has a Spell Speed 3 to activate first. I was more comfortable with Skey's explainations.

Player A has priority because that player is Turn Player and Turn Player has priority after their summoning. You retain priority even if you can't use it. It's just how it works.

 

[Tiso]

So obviously previous statements priority is wrong? Clearly since I retain priority at all times I can activate my Ignition Effect first and then my opponent can decide to Solemn Judgment that summon.

 

[masterwoo0]

Why would Player A pass priority? He does not even retain priority if his opponent has a Spell Speed 3 to activate first. I was more comfortable with Skey's explainations.

Like I said earlier, Priority is the heart of the "why" Solemn Judgment is at issue here.

When you summon Breaker the Magical Warrior, where does Solemn Judgment fall? Does it take away the priority to place a counter?

I am willing to "concede" the fact that the Turn Player retains Priority before Solemn Judgment can activate. I dont ask for a flock of believers to convert to my way of thinking. Only that someone offer a more palatable solution.

All retaining priority does is allow the turn player to "activate" an effect. If its the monster that was summoned, it won't resolve because the monster's summon is negated, and it's as if it was never there to activate an effect.

Solemn Judgment follows the same basic negation activation timing of Negate Attack. Solemn Judgment can't miss its timing because it can be chained or respond to nearly any Spell, or Trap, as well as a Summon.

 

[Tiso]

Woo, I am sorry and I mean this in the nicest way, but clearly a LV3 Judge status does not suit you.

When you summon Breaker the Magical Warrior, where does Solemn Judgment fall? Does it take away the priority to place a counter?

Did you actually say this? Moving on....

Following your "opinion" on how priority is supposed to work, I am sorry I will not concede to that. I see no proof to back up your claim, nor do I see an understanding of how everything about priority (here, judges list, etc) have all been wrong and clearly the turn player will always retain priority regardless. Now this would make life easier of Konami/UDE would put what the heck priority is in their rule books for once. For most of us we got a general idea of how it is supposed to work. When summoning, the turn player retains priority to activate an Igition Effect or Spell Speed 2 or ????? effects. The "?????" is for whether or not the turn player is allowed to go higher than Spell Speed 2 when priority is concerned or does that option only goes first to the opponent? If I had the article where priority was clearly explained and it detailed which effects can be used I would be more confident with it, but at the moment I am going with SS2 and Ignition Effects unless opponent has a Spell Speed 3 card.

 

[Tkwiget]

So obviously previous statements priority is wrong? Clearly since I retain priority at all times I can activate my Ignition Effect first and then my opponent can decide to Solemn Judgment that summon.

No, because first of all the Turn Player priority is taken away whenever Solemn Judgment or Horn of Heaven negates the summoning of the monster. Masterwoo0 was just explaining a different point of view. The first sentence of his post tells you that.

Solemn Judgment is activated in response to the declaration of the summoning of a monster. This is how it was explained to me and that's how I've always explained it to people. Responding to the declaration of the summoning and responding to the summoning itself are two completely different things. Negating the summoning of a Normal Summon with Solemn Judgment is being activated in response to the declaration of the summoning.

As far as the activating timing for Bottomless Trap Hole and Solemn Judgment is concerned, I'd have to say that Masterwoo0 is on to something with that way of thinking. Bottomless Trap Hole only activates in response to a monster summoning. Solemn Judgment only response to the declaration of the monster summoning. Perhaps Bottomless Trap Hole does in fact respond to the declaration of the summoning like Solemn Judgment does, just the monster summoning is never negated and the summoning is considered to be successful.

rcspash: Stuff like this just makes me feel like beating my head against the wall. All of us have our own position on where we stand. I feel we're all agreeing to some degree, ust not explaining what we're getting at very clearly. However, I do agree with most of what Masterwoo0 has said (not because his L3, but because he has made the most sense so far -- this includes everyone that has been agreeing with most of what he has said as well).

 

[Tiso]

Twig, the card does not say "negate the declaration". Let us not start that again. I think people cannot picture the act of a monster hitting the field, and then being negated and destroyed. I thought we already got pass this?

Second of all, Woo so far has yet to convince with me with his way of thinking and I am sorry, as I said earlier being a LV3 judge does not suit him. I was honestly shocked at what I was reading in his responses. People make mistakes sure, but I would have expected this in a complex situation, not something that is easy to understand (his statement about Breaker for example).

 

[anthonyj]

Also, this isnt what it's been about, but I really dont think anyone is looking at this from the point of view that it should be, maybe even myself.

Priority gives the Turn Player certain options when he summons a monster.

Priority allows him/her (depending on the effect in question) to activate a Spell Speed 2 effect, or, activate an Ignition Effect of a monster that was previously summoned, or the monster "just" summoned.

Now, having said that, this should only occur upon a summon, which becomes an "event".

Bottomless Trap Hole cannot be activated prior to a summon. You cannot activate Bottomless Trap Hole on your opponents monster in hand because it has yet to be summoned. The monster in question must hit the field.

We'll use Gemini Elf in this example and stay off Jinzo for now....

Player A has no monsters on the field and Gemini Elf in hand, with Seven Tools of the Bandit set.

Player B has no monsters, a face-down Bottomless Trap Hole and Solemn Judgment set.

Player A declares at the beginning of Main Phase 1 that he will summon Gemini Elf to the field, placing it face-up in his Monster Zone.

Player A does not use turn player priority to activate any Spell Speed 2 effects and passes to Player B.

Player B activates Bottomless Trap Hole to the summon of Gemini Elf.

Now Gemini Elf, based upon cards on the turn players side of the field, was only going to allow the turn player to "summon", and pass priority, because he had no other effects to activate.

Player B had two choices at this point. Activate Solemn Judgment, or Bottomless Trap Hole. Player B chose Bottomless Trap Hole, to which Player A could have responded with Seven Tools of the Bandit.

Player A choses not to continue the chain. Bottomless Trap Hole resolves, destroying the summoned monster and removing it from play. Player A's monster was not summoned successfully as it is no longer on the field, but it was summoned.

Bottomless Trap Hole
Normal Trap

When your opponent Normal Summons, Flip Summons, or Special Summons a monster(s) with an ATK of 1500 or more, destroy and remove from play the monster(s).

Nowhere does it say in Bottomless Trap Hole's effect that the summon must be successful in order to activate. Just that the monster must be "summoned".


Example number next...

Same scenario.

Player A summons Gemini Elf in face-up attack. Player A has no Spell Speed 2 effects that they can immediately activate and passes priority to Player B

Player B activates Solemn Judgment to negate the summon and destroy the monster.

Player A does not continue the chain.

Solemn Judgment resolves and destroys the summoned monster.


Now, lets look at a monster that offers turn player priority.

Player A has Tribe-Infecting Virus and Sinister Serpent in hand, with Seven Tools of the Bandit set.

Player B has Gemini Elf and Skilled Dark Magician face-up on the field, with Solemn Judgment set.

Player A declares at the beginning of Main Phase 1 that he intends to summon Tribe-Infecting Virus face-up in attack and places him on the field. Player A then declares that they will use turn player priority to activate Tribe-Infecting Virus' effect and discard Sinister Serpent from hand to the Graveyard to destroy all face-up Spellcasters on the field.

Now, this is where it either goes right, or wrong.

Player B chains Solemn Judgment to Tribe-Infecting Virus effect to negate the summon and destroy the monster.

At this point, the last thing to occur was the summon of Tribe-Infecting Virus.

Solemn Judgment resolves, negating the summon of Tribe-Infecting Virus' AND since his summon was negated, his effect does NOT activate and no Spellcasters are destroyed.

Now, how can Bottomless Trap Hole and Solemn Judgment NOT have the same timing?

If you read the effect of Bottomless Trap Hole, once again, it never states that a monster must be successfully summon in order to activate the effect, just summoned. I believe the older text may have stated that.

But, what is a successful summon other than "a monster remaining on the field after all responding effects have been activated and resolved."

We already know that a monster does not have to remain on the field to resolve an effect that they activated. But, unless the summon was negated or the effect requires a face-up monster to complete the resolution, it doesnt matter that the monster's summon was not successful, BUT, it was not negated.

If you change it around to say, summon a monster with an Ignition Effect, but activate the effect of a previously summoned monster, Solemn Judgment should still be able to chain to that effect, and destroy the summoned monster, but the effect of the previously summoned monster will still resolve successfully.

Jinzo, can only affect the field if he is successfully summoned. Solemn Judgment prevents the successful summon even of Jinzo. The Turn Player would retain priority, but would have to negate the effect of Solemn Judgment to allow Jinzo to remain on the field.

Is this a confirmed scenario with UDE? This is entirely outside of what most of us have understood to be proper timing for the negators. This question should truly be posted to the Judge's List ASAP. As I would be astounded and amazed to hear it confirmed that a summoned monster could activate it's ignition effect before the opponent negated the summon with Solemn Judgment.

 

[masterwoo0]

No, because first of all the Turn Player priority is taken away whenever Solemn Judgment or Horn of Heaven negates the summoning of the monster. Masterwoo0 was just explaining a different point of view. The first sentence of his post tells you that.

Solemn Judgment is activated in response to the declaration of the summoning of a monster. This is how it was explained to me and that's how I've always explained it to people. Responding to the declaration of the summoning and responding to the summoning itself are two completely different things. Negating the summoning of a Normal Summon with Solemn Judgment is being activated in response to the declaration of the summoning.

As far as the activating timing for Bottomless Trap Hole and Solemn Judgment is concerned, I'd have to say that Masterwoo0 is on to something with that way of thinking. Bottomless Trap Hole only activates in response to a monster summoning. Solemn Judgment only response to the declaration of the monster summoning. Perhaps Bottomless Trap Hole does in fact respond to the declaration of the summoning like Solemn Judgment does, just the monster summoning is never negated and the summoning is considered to be successful.

rcspash: Stuff like this just makes me feel like beating my head against the wall. All of us have our own position on where we stand. I feel we're all agreeing to some degree, ust not explaining what we're getting at very clearly. However, I do agree with most of what Masterwoo0 has said (not because his L3, but because he has made the most sense so far -- this includes everyone that has been agreeing with most of what he has said as well).

Thanks Tkwiget. Some people cant get past personalities so they focus on ignoring the obvious.

Tiso, you don't have to like me. I have my family that can serve as the only friends I will ever need in life, and as such, your, meaning "Tiso's", opinion and approval mean very, very, very, little in the scheme of things.

Now, you can hate the fact that I made it, but I didnt make it because I tossed a coin in the air a gazillion times to get the answer.

Like it, love it, hate it, doesnt matter. I have arrived, and you are probably better suited to stick with your love/hate relationship with Konami, than me, because this is about as much attention you are personally going to receive from this "Level 3 Judge" in the future.

 

[Tkwiget]

Breaker the Magical Warrior will only receive its Spell Counter when Normal Summoned successfully.

You make it seem like if he makes a simply mistake that he shouldn't be an L3 judge. John Danker has made a mistake in a deck thread of mine on this thread thinking that Dark Magician of Chaos would bring back a Spell card when summoned by Magical Dimension. Does this mean that he isn't suited for L3 judge status?

Masterwoo0 passed his L3 test. This has proven to everyone that he's worthy of being an L3 judge. I missed 6 questions on my L2 test. Does this mean I'm not worthy of being a L2 judge? During the regional on Saturday, I made a horrible ruling call dealing with Dimension Wall, does this mean I'm not worthy of being an L2 judge?

Everyone goes off tangents once and a while. It's how discussions and knowledge of each individual involved grow and develop. Keep the behavior civilized and respectful please.

 

[Tiso]

Tiso, you don't have to like me. I have my family that can serve as the only friends I will ever need in life, and as such, your, meaning "Tiso's", opinion and approval mean very, very, very, little in the scheme of things.

Like it, love it, hate it, doesnt matter. I have arrived, and you are probably better suited to stick with your love/hate relationship with Konami, than me, because this is about as much attention you are personally going to receive from this "Level 3 Judge" in the future.

Woo, your attitude as of right now from what I see is a "I am a LV3 judge so I am right so tough." This is not even about liking you (which I am starting not to if this how you are with "power"). This is about you making a error in judging. Now if this was a complex error in judging from a complex situation I would have no problem since there would be no clear cut answer to who was right until proper discussion. However, you are going to post that Breaker the Magical Warrior essentially should get PRIORITY first to put a counter on itself when Breaker is a Trigger Effect?

Is this a confirmed scenario with UDE? This is entirely outside of what most of us have understood to be proper timing for the negators. This question should truly be posted to the Judge's List ASAP. As I would be astounded and amazed to hear it confirmed that a summoned monster could activate it's ignition effect before the opponent negated the summon with Solemn Judgment.

This was just his opinion on how it would work when contary to this most of us have another understanding how negators worked.

 

[Tiso]

Breaker the Magical Warrior will only receive its Spell Counter when Normal Summoned successfully.

You make it seem like if he makes a simply mistake that he shouldn't be an L3 judge. John Danker has made a mistake in a deck thread of mine on this thread thinking that Dark Magician of Chaos would bring back a Spell card when summoned by Magical Dimension. Does this mean that he isn't suited for L3 judge status?

Masterwoo0 passed his L3 test. This has proven to everyone that he's worthy of being an L3 judge. I missed 6 questions on my L2 test. Does this mean I'm not worthy of being a L2 judge? During the regional on Saturday, I made a horrible ruling call dealing with Dimension Wall, does this mean I'm not worthy of being an L2 judge?

Everyone goes off tangents once and a while. It's how discussions and knowledge of each individual involved grow and develop. Keep the behavior civilized and respectful please.

Twig the was not the point. That is like Danker saying "Well you cannot activate Quick-Play Spell Cards from your hand during your own turn." This is not about a love/hate relationship. We look, players, to judges for understanding of the game. How is it that I, a player, was able to spot a simple mistake that even a LV1 judge should not have a problem with?

 

[John Danker]

Gentlemen, lets not have this getting personal. We pride ourselves here on being able to have a mature, calm, yet meaningful debate without people getting personal with each other....lets keep it that way. I don't like closing threads with great content so please don't make me do so.

 

[BenjaminMS]

Tiso, can you get a bit calmer please? I am noticing your behaviour is getting a past... tense the last time. No need for that.

 

[masterwoo0]

You have completely misunderstood the example I was trying to make.

Everyone uses Breaker as an example of "Priority".

Breaker is summoned (we wont use Solemn Judgment), Opponent's priority is used up to place the Spell Counter, as it is the only action the turn player can perform, so it forces him to use up his chance to activate a Spell Speed 2 or higher effect.

If Breaker is summoned and his effect triggers and he MUST place his counter, can the turn player activate any effect prior to his opponent activating Solemn Judgment?

I really dont know what has changed about my influence or attitude. I present the same focus I had before I made LV3. That's the reason I dont even bother posting all the "Flair" certifications I have. If you want to go with what I say, you do it because you think its either right, or not. Make your choice based on my opinion, not my level of certificaitons.

 

[Tiso]

Benjamin, did you see the comments that were posted? It only got personal when he made a comment about my only interaction with a LV3 would be this. Now moving on, this does not change the fact that LV3 Judge or not, he made wild ruling mistakes. Now mistakes are a part of life and without them life would be boring. From our mistakes we learn how to be better from them. However, how I am able to "accept" what this judge is telling me to be true? Remember, judges are not infalliable and even a player, calmly putting together their argument on a subject will outshine a judge. With that said, it is one thing if this was a mistake on a complex situation, but this is a mistake based on his own personal ideals on how priority works, let alone ignoring the game mechanics on how priority works. Breaker only gets his counter when he is summoned (successfully). How is he going to get a counter with priority when his summon is negated?

But of course whenever I point someone's mistake in a calm fashion I still get the short end of the stick.

 

[John Danker]

As far as I go myself, I wouldn't go too far with an argument based on the mechanics of priority (having been established) First, I haven't seen those mechanics officially posted, second, from what I have seen (unofficially posted) a number of people's ideas on the subject may very well be changed should and when it IS officially posted.