Royal Oppression

[kingpinopie]

Ok... Royal Oppression... can it negate ANY special summon?? BLS.. Nimbles... etc?? and do you have to pay 800 each time you negate ??

 

[novastar]

No, the Divine Wrath ruling does not prove this. The Divine Wrath ruling was ruled for the specific case where the EFFECT of the special summon was negated. Negating the effect and negating the special summon... darn, lost my words. Well, they're two different things.

Here's an example. You have two Royal Oppression on the field. Your opponent activates Vampire Lord's effect. You chain the effect of one Royal Oppression to it. He chains Mystical Space Typhoon to destroy that Royal Oppression. Since you have another Royal Oppression, and since it can't negate the effect without chaining directly onto the effect (counter-trap rulings), you have to wait until VLord's effect is resolving. Then you activate the second effect, to negate the special summon itself (this is not chaining).

See what above? You do realize that what are saying doesn't make any sense, right? Frankly, i'm a little surprised to see you say this...

V-Lord's effect would fully resolve (Special Summoning him successfully) before any response could be made, so you could not use Horn/SJ/RO, thats how chaining and effect resolution works.

You cannot interupt the resolution of an activated effect with an activation of ANY kind.

In otherwords, i'm saying that what you are proposing is not possible.

 

[daivahataka]

Okay, what's the difference between negating a summon from the hand, and negating a special summon from the graveyard? Both cards hit the field, but the monsters themselves aren't existing on the field. If you can't visualize this, you should learn the Trap-Monster rulings.

And how come you don't have messengers?

Negating from the hand means the card still needs a reason to go to the Graveyard (hence destroying it), negating from the Graveyard, you can't destroy something which has already been destroyed.

 

[Raijinili]

V-Lord's effect would fully resolve (Special Summoning him successfully) before any response could be made, so you could not use Horn/SJ/RO, thats how chaining and effect resolution works.

You are assuming that summoning is that simple. Apparently, Konami decided it was not. And you say that you can't use Horn of Heaven or Solemn Judgement on Vampire Lord. We've had this argument before. If I remember correctly, you conceded that Konami allowed them to negate special-summons by effects such as Nephthys' or VLord's, but you believed they were wrong. I am trying to make sense of their game while you're trying to make a game with your logic.

Daiv, I refer you to the response I gave Strike when he challenged me. Since it's basically the same challenge.

No, the Divine Wrath ruling does not prove this. The Divine Wrath ruling was ruled for the specific case where the EFFECT of the special summon was negated. Negating the effect and negating the special summon... darn, lost my words. Well, they're two different things.

How is the last part not "chaining"? Royal Oppression has a manually activated effect that you choose to activate, it will always go on a chain.

If this case were true, which it isn't, this would fall for Horn of Heaven as well.

The last part is NOT chaining because there was no effect to chain to. Royal Oppression would start a new chain.

Your "2nd" Royal Oppression would not be able to negate "Special Summon" of Vampire Lord, as it was Special Summoned by an "effect" that has already "resolved". You don't "cut" out the fact that it was Special Summoned by an "effect" especially one that had already resolved.

Konami NEVER NEVER NEVER said that effects going on the chain block were preventing the special summon from being negated. Konami ALWAYS said that Horn of Heaven could not negate special summons made by OUTSIDE effects. ALWAYS. Not ONCE did they say that you couldn't negate a special summon because a card was resolving. I'll delete my account and leave if you can prove they did, even once.

Follow Horn of Heaven for example, as it is a Counter-Trap card. If Kuriboh were to be Special Summoned by Monster Reborn, and the Special Summon occurs, Horn of Heaven would not be able to negate it (Counter-Trap ruling), this would fall for Royal Oppression as well.

That is because Monster Reborn is special summoning Kuriboh, not Kuriboh. Once again, outside effect.

 

[StRiKe_NiNjA]

That is because Monster Reborn is special summoning Kuriboh, not Kuriboh. Once again, outside effect.

Tell me, what's the difference between Vampire Lord's recursion effect when it activates and when a Player activates Monster Reborn on a Kuriboh?

They have similar properties, both the Special Summon of Vampire Lord and also Kuriboh in the example were brought out by "effects". Horn of Heaven cannot negate the Special Summon of these 2 examples.

This is why you can't Horn of Heaven, Solemn Judgment,... etc. against the effect of Vampire Lord when it Special Summons itself from the graveyard. This also falls for Royal Oppression, whcih requires the same timing as Horn of Heaven.

With that said, your 2nd Royal Oppression would not begin a new chain as it cannot be activated in the first place. Vampire Lord is Special Summon by it's effect when it "resolved". Review the bolded

 

[Raijinili]

Tell me, what's the difference between Vampire Lord's recursion effect when it activates and when a Player activates Monster Reborn on a Kuriboh?

As I said, one is an outside effect.

They have similar properties, both the Special Summon of Vampire Lord and also Kuriboh in the example were brought out by "effects". Horn of Heaven cannot negate the Special Summon of these 2 examples.

It's like you totally ignored my argument and went straight to my thesis.

This is why you can't Horn of Heaven, Solemn Judgment,... etc. against the effect of Vampire Lord when it Special Summons itself from the graveyard. This also falls for Royal Oppression, whcih requires the same timing as Horn of Heaven.

As I said, Konami has ALWAYS said that the reason was otherwise.

Also, there's NO ruling that says that Horn of Heaven and Solemn Judgement can't be used on a monster special summoning itself. NONE.

With that said, your 2nd Royal Oppression would not begin a new chain as it cannot be activated in the first place. Vampire Lord is Special Summon by it's effect when it "resolved". Review the bolded

I am not stupid. I easily know more than twice the rulings you do. Thank you.

 

[chaosruler]

Alright, guys, calm down, we can have a rulings discussion without insulting each other, can't we??

-chaosruler

 

[Raijinili]

Well, I don't know about you, but I'm sick of him arguing against me with arrogance. Especially since he also uses bad logic.

I would not mind novastar or John Danker doing that, as I respect them in their rulings knowledge, but I also don't expect them to consistently use bad logic. Or arrogance, for that matter.

 

[StRiKe_NiNjA]

It does seem you do now twice the amount of ruling than I do, good for you! If it makes you feel important. I means who stopping you from feeling good and important about knowing a game better than someone else.

But, don't go around thinking that I think your stupid, because I have mad respect. Whether you care or not. Because I don't give a damn that you know twice the amount of ruling than I do.

Listen up, people got different views on how a ruling looks. Being that this game ruling expands to the end of time, I'm still learning. And if it feels like I'm challengin you to death with these ruling, guess what? I'm not.

 

[StRiKe_NiNjA]

I'm going to say this as proffesional as I can, to the best of knowledge, to only what I know. If I'm wrong, tough, it isn't good for me anyways.

Vampire Lord Vs. Horn of Heaven, my topic.

"Solemn Judgement" can be used to negate and destroy "Polymerization," "Monster Reborn," "Elegant Egotist," "Ritual Spell Cards," "Call of the Haunted," etc. "Solemn Judgment" has no issue with negating Spell and Trap Cards.

But if you wait and allow these cards to resolve and Special Summon the monster "Solemn Judgment" will no longer be able to negate the Summon.


If the Special Summon of Vampire Lord is resolved, you have missed the timing, and this monster considered to be successfully summoned. This should be true for Horn of Heaven. Even if Vampire Lord does have a "built-in" Special Summon effect, what does that have to do with anything right? Simple mechanics should prove to you that it's not possible to negate chainable effects with Horn of Heaven.

As a basic rule, you cannot simply activate a Counter-Trap that would cut in during the resolution of an effect. So Horn of Heaven can't mechanically negate the Special Summon of Vampire Lord this way. Or any other monster card that Special Summons in the same fashion like Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys.

Play by Play, during the Standby Phase...

Player1: Vampire Lord effect triggers, attempting to be Special Summoned
(Player2 has a Horn of Heaven ready)

But for Player2...

How can Player2 chain Horn of Heaven? Especially when Vampire Lord's effect is resolving...

- When Vampire Lord's effect triggered, it's still in the graveyard and hasn't left the graveyard, until it fully resolves
- Besides, when you want to respond this trigger event, you are not responding to the Special Summon here, as there is none. Your responding to effect activation here, Vampire Lord's effect when it triggered

Look, all I am saying is that you can't simply activate an effect when something resolves. Letting Vampire Lord be Special Summoned in this fashion, Horn of Heaven had already missed it's timing, it's during effect resolution.

 

[Raijinili]

I'm going to say this as proffesional as I can, to the best of knowledge, to only what I know. If I'm wrong, tough, it isn't good for me anyways.

And I will refresh my assessment of you, in my mind. It's always good to make a new opinion.

But if you wait and allow these cards to resolve and Special Summon the monster "Solemn Judgment" will no longer be able to negate the Summon.

True. I can bring up statements by official sources where they say that it's because every one of those effects are special summoning the monster, and the monster is not special summoning itself. And every one of those cards are magic/trap cards, and not special summoning themselves.

If the Special Summon of Vampire Lord is resolved, you have missed the timing, and this monster considered to be successfully summoned.

And that is the pivotal point. You and novastar assume that summons by effect are that simple. I try to fit in the Royal Oppression/Vampire Lord ruling in my understanding, and justify that with the explanation given every time people asked why you couldn't use Horn of Heaven on Monster Reborn.

And in a burst of inspiration, I went looking for a ruling to prove the "outside effect" reason. Under Fusion Gate, on the JERP:
http://home.att.ne.jp/moon/puppiy/rule/spell/s5/Field_19.htm

◇この「フュージョン・ゲート」の効果による融合召喚にチェーンはできません。
"It is not possible to chain to a special summon by Fusion Gate."

This shows that there is no activation and resolution, unlike Vampire Lord's effect.

「神の宣告」「王宮の弾圧」で特殊召喚を無効にする事はできません。
"It is not possible for God's Declaration (Solemn Judgement) or Oppression of the Court (Royal Oppression, or Imperial Oppression) to negate a special summon by Fusion Gate."

And I KNOW that Curtis just said Fusion Gate was "ignition-like". As I emailed to him, WWE doesn't play that way. As I also said, I know the games are not a good source, but it takes a lot of effort to make a mistake like that. No response yet. Which means he's reconsidering?

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

◇この「フュージョン・ゲート」の効果による融合召喚にチェーンはできません。
"It is not possible to chain to a special summon by Fusion Gate."

This shows that there is no activation and resolution, (sic)

「神の宣告」「王宮の弾圧」で特殊召喚を無効にする事はできません。
"It is not possible for God's Declaration (Solemn Judgement) or Oppression of the Court (Royal Oppression, or Imperial Oppression) to negate a special summon by Fusion Gate."

And I KNOW that Curtis just said Fusion Gate was "ignition-like". As I emailed to him, WWE doesn't play that way. As I also said, I know the games are not a good source, but it takes a lot of effort to make a mistake like that. No response yet. Which means he's reconsidering?

The Power of Chaos series demonstrate Fusion gate as being an ignition-like effect; it can be chained against. ALthough still not a good source of rulings, PofC Joey and Yugioh Online should be above any game.

 

[StRiKe_NiNjA]

And in a burst of inspiration, I went looking for a ruling to prove the "outside effect" reason. Under Fusion Gate, on the JERP:
http://home.att.ne.jp/moon/puppiy/rule/spell/s5/Field_19.htm

◇この「フュージョン・ゲート」の効果による融合召喚にチェーンはできません。
"It is not possible to chain to a special summon by Fusion Gate."

This shows that there is no activation and resolution, unlike Vampire Lord's effect.

「神の宣告」「王宮の弾圧」で特殊召喚を無効にする事はできません。
"It is not possible for God's Declaration (Solemn Judgement) or Oppression of the Court (Royal Oppression, or Imperial Oppression) to negate a special summon by Fusion Gate."

And I KNOW that Curtis just said Fusion Gate was "ignition-like". As I emailed to him, WWE doesn't play that way. As I also said, I know the games are not a good source, but it takes a lot of effort to make a mistake like that. No response yet. Which means he's reconsidering?

I agree with the JERP, and that Fusion Gate does not have an "Ignition-Like". Probably not the best example in the world, but the Special Summon occurs like the X-Head Cannon, Y-Dragon Head, etc. removal to bring out XY-Dragon Cannon

You can Solemn Judgment, the XY-Dragon Cannon when Special Summoned, but not to Special Summon that occurs by Fusion Gate, since it's by effect. Hopefully, he reconsiders this pretty soon. So the JERP ruling is what I can agree on. Fusion Gate should be by far a "Continuos Effect"

So I'm 100% on this.

 

[novastar]

You are assuming that summoning is that simple. Apparently, Konami decided it was not. And you say that you can't use Horn of Heaven or Solemn Judgement on Vampire Lord. We've had this argument before. If I remember correctly, you conceded that Konami allowed them to negate special-summons by effects such as Nephthys' or VLord's, but you believed they were wrong. I am trying to make sense of their game while you're trying to make a game with your logic.

Honestly Rai i'm not just using my logic, my thoughts are based on a lot of rulings.

The summon occurs during the resolution of the effect (the chain link), so you should not be able to interupt that with a Counter Trap. The effect would fully resolve before a response could be made. There is a lot of precendent to support this, it is not just some assumption.

 

[StRiKe_NiNjA]

The summon occurs during the resolution of the effect (the chain link), so you should not be able to interupt that with a Counter Trap. The effect would fully resolve before a response could be made. There is a lot of precendent to support this, it is not just some assumption.

There's is no ruling that contradicts Solemn Judgment, Horn of Heaven, etc. that it can negate a Special Summon by a monster achieved by it's own effect like Vampire Lord. Not talking about those cards like Archlord Zerato or as such.

But the reason I believe your correct is that it's simply this, "The summon occurs during the resolution of the effect (the chain link), so you should not be able to interupt that with a Counter Trap. The effect would fully resolve before a response could be made."

I just don't understand how a monster that has a "built-in effect" could change that, espcially if one goes on a chain like Vampire Lord. As I said:

If the Special Summon of Vampire Lord is resolved, you have missed the timing, and this monster considered to be successfully summoned. This should be true for Horn of Heaven. Even if Vampire Lord does have a "built-in" Special Summon effect, what does that have to do with anything right? Simple mechanics should prove to you that it's not possible to negate chainable effects with Horn of Heaven.

As a basic rule, you cannot simply activate a Counter-Trap that would cut in during the resolution of an effect. So Horn of Heaven can't mechanically negate the Special Summon of Vampire Lord this way.

I may not know the amount ruling as some of you do, but have I missed in a point my quote?

As I am still learning this game, I would like to know what I have missed here.

 

[novastar]

We are all still learning StRiKe... all the time.

 

[novastar]

There's is no ruling that contradicts Solemn Judgment, Horn of Heaven, etc. that it can negate a Special Summon by a monster achieved by it's own effect like Vampire Lord. Not talking about those cards like Archlord Zerato or as such.

Actually there is a Horn ruling that states that it cannot (see other thread).

There may not be alot to contradict the summon negation, but there is a lot to support that you cannot interupt the resolution of an effect.

 

[StRiKe_NiNjA]

Well, I haven't seen the ruling yet, so I cannot say.

I do agree with your 2nd statement though, not only that there support, it's a rule.

Anyways, I notice you've have been absent for the past 2 weeks or so? Where ya been? Don't bother answering if you do not wish too, I feel as if I'm already asking too much.

Good to see your back though.

 

[novastar]

I was in Vancouver for a bit visiting friends.

 

[StRiKe_NiNjA]

I was in Vancouver for a bit visiting friends.

That's good to hear, hope you enjoyed that visit. Anyways I've believe I seen that ruling you were refering too.

You cannot use "Horn of Heaven" to negate the Special Summon of "Vampire Lord" or "Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys" when they are Special Summoned by their effects.

Now I can say I seen it all, atleast when it comes down to this.

 

[novastar]

Yup that's the one...