Skill Drain & Toon Gemini Elf
- Thread starter anthonyj
- Start date
I dont believe so. I think the no attacking, is a condition of summoning rather than part of the effect, so it wouldnt be subject to Skill Drain. That's how I was reading the text of Toon Gemini, at least.
Even if it is an effect, Skill Drain still wouldnt cause the card Toon Gemini Elf to "forget" that it was summoned that turn. Therefore, if Skill Drain were removed, as in your situation, TGI would not be able to attack.
However, Im no authority on anything. Except maybe mistakes, so treat this as nothing more than a speculated opinion.
Even if it is an effect, Skill Drain still wouldnt cause the card Toon Gemini Elf to "forget" that it was summoned that turn. Therefore, if Skill Drain were removed, as in your situation, TGI would not be able to attack.
However, Im no authority on anything. Except maybe mistakes, so treat this as nothing more than a speculated opinion.
John Danker
Administrator
It's certainly a reasonable question, especially when you look at the rulings regarding Fusilier Dragon, the Dual-Mode Beast and Skill Drain which reads....
If you Summoned this card without Tribute, and then "Skill Drain" is later activated, the ATK and DEF are no longer halved. If "Skill Drain" is later destroyed, the ATK and DEF still remain 2800/2000.
Granted, a monster's atk changing and it remembering if it was summoned or not that turn are two different things but it's enough to encourage thought and debate anyway
Not that I'd ever encourage those things here mind you.
If you Summoned this card without Tribute, and then "Skill Drain" is later activated, the ATK and DEF are no longer halved. If "Skill Drain" is later destroyed, the ATK and DEF still remain 2800/2000.
Granted, a monster's atk changing and it remembering if it was summoned or not that turn are two different things but it's enough to encourage thought and debate anyway
Not that I'd ever encourage those things here mind you.yeah, Ive never been completely comfortable with many of the Fusilier rulings, vs. Skill Drain being one.
its kind of a moot point to argue what is a confirmed ruling, but I would have argued that the effect should indeed reactivate causing Fusilier to return to half-attack. Since the effect would have triggered. If, and only if Skill Drain were already active when Fusilier Dragon was originally summoned, could I see reason for suggesting that its attack remain permanently at 2800, cause the effect would never have triggered.
(is Fusilier classified as a trigger effect? It can't be ignition, since you don't choose, so I assumed it was a trigger)
The only cases I know of a monster legally "forgetting" its effect/condition/etc are #1: when affected by Book of Moon (as in a Snatched->BoM'd monster) and #2: when a monster is removed from the field (as in Interdimensional Matter Transporter being played on a specially summoned Fusion card, from Summoner of Illusions.....or was it Magical Scientist? I need to review that.
From what you are hinting at, John, it sounds like you are suggesting that Toon Gemini Elf's not attacking is indeed part of an effect. But, to me its a condition, made apparent by the fact that it is in a separate sentence at the beginning of the text. Similar to how Spirit monsters have the condition of returning to the hand.
*BTW-does setting and Taiyou'ing a TGE sound like a good idea to anyone else but me?
its kind of a moot point to argue what is a confirmed ruling, but I would have argued that the effect should indeed reactivate causing Fusilier to return to half-attack. Since the effect would have triggered. If, and only if Skill Drain were already active when Fusilier Dragon was originally summoned, could I see reason for suggesting that its attack remain permanently at 2800, cause the effect would never have triggered.
(is Fusilier classified as a trigger effect? It can't be ignition, since you don't choose, so I assumed it was a trigger)
The only cases I know of a monster legally "forgetting" its effect/condition/etc are #1: when affected by Book of Moon (as in a Snatched->BoM'd monster) and #2: when a monster is removed from the field (as in Interdimensional Matter Transporter being played on a specially summoned Fusion card, from Summoner of Illusions.....or was it Magical Scientist? I need to review that.
From what you are hinting at, John, it sounds like you are suggesting that Toon Gemini Elf's not attacking is indeed part of an effect. But, to me its a condition, made apparent by the fact that it is in a separate sentence at the beginning of the text. Similar to how Spirit monsters have the condition of returning to the hand.
*BTW-does setting and Taiyou'ing a TGE sound like a good idea to anyone else but me?
Well I seem to recall the old ruling that if a Toon was summoned and Skill Drain was on the field, it can attack that turn (just not directly for the original toons) and you wouldn't have to pay anything to attack with them (again for the old toons). Of course if Skill Drain leaves the field, I guess the question would be this: while we know monsters with effects have those effects active, is the "can't attack" considered ongoing throughout the whole turn or is it only based on the time it's summoned (like Fusilier's reset of his ATK where that effect only activates upon his summon). Looking at it that way, I'd lean slightly towards the side of saying "no it can't" since that feels more like the ongoing condition.
John Danker
Administrator
<playing devil's advocate>
Then do you believe that Fusilier's only line of text which reads...
This card can be Normal Summoned or Set without Tribute. In that case, the original ATK/DEF of this card become halved
is an effect or a condition?
Then do you believe that Fusilier's only line of text which reads...
This card can be Normal Summoned or Set without Tribute. In that case, the original ATK/DEF of this card become halved
is an effect or a condition?
An odd hybrid of the two since it loses its effect if Skill Drain is activated, resolved, and removed but it stays 1400 in the GY for the effects of the E-Hero Fusions.
I don't believe Skill Drain negates conditions and with that belief I'd have to say that Toon Gemini Elf can't attack the turn it's summoned.
I think it could be related to how Necrovalley negates and destroys Fiber Jar when it's activated and how Soul Exchange and Last Will work. Not 100% sure on that but the rulings of conditions might be related. However I don't know if Necrovalley and Last Will really are good examples and Soul Exchange might not either. =/
Skill Drain was always a tricky card for me to understand with rulings like Dark Magician of Chaos being Book of Mooned upon summoning in a chain to his effect and then having it resolve as he's face down. Small stuff like that is kind of what I miss and forget as I try to learn more game mechanics.
(Hint: I'm pretty tired from my seven and a half hour college tour. Eh...)
I think it could be related to how Necrovalley negates and destroys Fiber Jar when it's activated and how Soul Exchange and Last Will work. Not 100% sure on that but the rulings of conditions might be related. However I don't know if Necrovalley and Last Will really are good examples and Soul Exchange might not either. =/
Skill Drain was always a tricky card for me to understand with rulings like Dark Magician of Chaos being Book of Mooned upon summoning in a chain to his effect and then having it resolve as he's face down. Small stuff like that is kind of what I miss and forget as I try to learn more game mechanics.
(Hint: I'm pretty tired from my seven and a half hour college tour. Eh...)
John Danker said:
dirty lil demon, dirty dirtee.
I believe it is a triggered effect that takes place during its summoning. Its more similar to Gilasaurus than it is to Toon Gemini Elf. If Skill Drain is removed from the field, Gilasaurus doesnt re-trigger allowing for another summon on you or your opponent's part. And, likewise, neither would that scenario cause Fusilier's effect to re-trigger and cause a halving of its attack.
Just to be safe, I went to look at the text of Toon Mermaid for comparison to Toon Gemini Elf, since Mermaid is the only 4* Toon from the first release.
That sounds conclusively like a condition
I dont remember that! Is that new errata, or am I senile?
Either way, my impression is that this is simply for the Toons Summoned Skull, Manga Ryu Ran, and Toon Blue Eyes.
Based on the fact that Skill Drain negates that portion of not attacking on the summoning Turn, I would place this entire portion under effect.
However, Toon Gemini Elf is written completely differently.
Sounds more similar to Nomi conditions and Spirit monster restrictions.
All of which is effect, IMO.
And Twiget: Skill Drain doesn't negate maintenence costs like those of Archfiends, so you can be pretty confident that it wont negate conditions either.
however Necrovalley wouldnt negate Soul Exchange or Last Will, since neither of those cards activate or target cards in the Grave. Fiber gets negated because it does try and remove Graveyard cards.
Skill Drain got much easier once I understood activation vs. resolution. But Im sure d_x can explain that much better.
(and probably has, considering the time this post took)
I was simply referencing to the rulings of Necrovalley vs. Fiber Jar and then just briefly mentioned Soul Exchange and Last Will as cards that create a condition as well. I might have been a little misleading in my wording of my above post. If that was the case then what you think I meant wasn't the case.
Fuselier is only weird with Skill Drain because of the (New Original Attack) rulings. Other monsters have effects that modify their attack that are turned off by Skill Drain (Berserk Dragon, Zombyra the Dark, Great Maju Garzett, Exodia Necross) it does make sense that once the effect has been negated and the Original attack is what is printed on the card removing Skill Drain wouldn't change that unless it were a constantly modifying effect like Chaos Necromancer or Megarock Dragon).
So my initial impression is that Toon Gemini's not being able to attack is a restriction effect which checks whether it has been summoned this round when the attack is declared, similar to Ultimate Obedient Fiend's restriction effect of not being able to attack if there are any other cards on his side of the field.
Just wanted to get some confirmation.
So my initial impression is that Toon Gemini's not being able to attack is a restriction effect which checks whether it has been summoned this round when the attack is declared, similar to Ultimate Obedient Fiend's restriction effect of not being able to attack if there are any other cards on his side of the field.
Just wanted to get some confirmation.
oops! I should have known better than to think you would have misinterpreted those effects. My apologies.Tkwiget said:
@ anthonyj:
Do you mean as a continuous effect, that restricts a certain action? I was just trying to be clear. I understand what you are saying by:
But I was wondering if anyone knew if there was an answer to this similar question:
If Skill Drain was activated while a Homunculus the Alchemic Being was on the field, with a declared type of Water, and Skill Drain was removed from the field, would Homunculus' type revert to Water, or would it remain as its original Light?
Homunculus is an Ignition effect, I realize, and not a trigger, as I suspect Fusilier is. However, neither of those cards would be continuously checking anything, except maybe that their effects were activated previously.
I would agree with that. Homunculus would revert to it's natural attribute and would have to have it's effect activated again to make it something else.
Yes. The restriction is a continuous effect that checks for the requirements or you can not perform an action. Black Tyranno, Drillago, and Shadowslayer would be other examples of this type of continuous effect.
Yes. The restriction is a continuous effect that checks for the requirements or you can not perform an action. Black Tyranno, Drillago, and Shadowslayer would be other examples of this type of continuous effect.
OK, so then if Homunculus would reset, then its logical to expect the something similar to occur for Fusilier, which is why the current ruling of Fusilier vs. Skill Drain would make sense.
However, back to the original question: I still feel that Skill Drain would have no effect on the "no attacking" part of Toon Gemini Elf.
maybe I missed or forgot, but has there been an argument that clearly suggest otherwise?
However, back to the original question: I still feel that Skill Drain would have no effect on the "no attacking" part of Toon Gemini Elf.
maybe I missed or forgot, but has there been an argument that clearly suggest otherwise?
Well if Skill Drain is active then:
Toon Monsters' effects are negated while "Skill Drain" is active and the Toon Monster is on the field, so they can attack the same turn they are Summoned, you do not have to pay 500 Life Points to attack with them, and they are not destroyed if "Toon World" is destroyed, but they cannot attack your opponent directly.
The basic question about this was whether this would erase the restriction if they were summoned while it was active but kick back in if Skill Drain left the field. More or less a question of whether the restriction would "turn back on" if Skill Drain left the field.
Toon Monsters' effects are negated while "Skill Drain" is active and the Toon Monster is on the field, so they can attack the same turn they are Summoned, you do not have to pay 500 Life Points to attack with them, and they are not destroyed if "Toon World" is destroyed, but they cannot attack your opponent directly.
The basic question about this was whether this would erase the restriction if they were summoned while it was active but kick back in if Skill Drain left the field. More or less a question of whether the restriction would "turn back on" if Skill Drain left the field.
Yeah, just read that ruling anthony. Doesn't make much sense anyway. The text of Toon Gemini Elf's first sentence clearly reads as a condition rather than part of the effect IMO.
But like the original question is asking, Toon Gemini Elf will get to attack the same turn it is summoned when Skill Drain is activated and then leaves the field the same turn. I think. ><
But like the original question is asking, Toon Gemini Elf will get to attack the same turn it is summoned when Skill Drain is activated and then leaves the field the same turn. I think. ><
Homunculus the Alchemic Being will not reset. It is not continuously applied.
Fusilier Dragon, the Dual-Mode Beast is not a Triggered. Its effect is applied even when it is set. It is continuous.
Fusilier Dragon, the Dual-Mode Beast is not a Triggered. Its effect is applied even when it is set. It is continuous.
Raijinili said:
Homunculus the Alchemic Being will revert to being a light monster if Skill Drain is active on the field. If Skill Drain leaves the field Homunculus will remain a light monster until the controller activates the effect again and chooses a new attribute.
Fusilier Dragon's effect which allows you to summon him without tribute is most certainly not a continuous effect. It is an effect activated in hand which affects Fusilier whether it is summoned face up or set face down. This effect is erased if Fusilier is Book of Moon'd or Skill Drain is active. Or IMT'd. I don't see anything "continuous" about that.