Weird call of the tournament

J

John Danker

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I just thought I'd start posting the weirdest rulings call I'm asked to make each tournament for fun.

Des Moines Regional last Sat.

Player 1 special summons Thousand Eyes Restrict and absorbs Player 2's face down monster, ends turn.

Player 2 draws and sets a monsters, ends turn.

Player 1 draws and in main phase 1 activates Nobleman of Extermination on the face down eqip. to his own Thousand Eyes Restrict.

If you want me to tell you how I ruled it I'd be happy to but it's not the intention of this thread. What I want to do is present scenarios to you to rule, on the spot, without looking them up.

It never fails, you always seem to run into at least one scenario you haven't seen before no matter how long you've been judging!
 
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To think all this could have been avoided if the player had used MST or Dust Tornado...

Personally the question is the card considered an Equiped Spell or Equiped Monster?

I personally never had seen an equiped card be able to equip to somthing while Facedown...But then again the older cards are strange have have their own rulings that are odd and seem to break the laws of Yugioh as we know it...Last Will, Soul Exchange, Forced Requisition, Appropriate, Nyan Nyan, and so on...

When doing the Pomona Regionals Saturday I saw some intresting things, then afterwards on sunday I was talking with Fantasyzz and He start telling me some of the things he saw that were in the Top 8...

What John said was true, you will run into situations that you have never seen before no matter how long you've been judging.
 
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I figured I'd post something here just becuase no one answered John's question on where the ARRJ got it's ruling.

Keep in mind that all ARRJ rulings were rulings that were made on the UDE Judge's List but never put on the website on their official FAQ. So the ruling made on TER and Nobleman of Extermination was previously asked on the judges list and we archived it in our ARRJ documents.
 
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Rulings made on the Judge Group are from the Netreps.
The netreps get their Rulings from Kevin Tewart of UDE.
Kevin gets his Rulings from the Ruling Peoples at Konami.

Least thats how its susposed to work...
 
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Just to throw in my 2 cents into the discussion:
I can't see where a facedown monster absorbed by TER/Relinquishd could ever be treated as just an 'Equip" and not an "Equip Spell Card." That said, the monster is technically face-down and from the games mechanical standpoint it is face down.

When I first started typing this I was going to say Nobelman couldn't target for the same reasons that many pointed out here. But after considering the Skill Drain ruling I think I understand. TER's effect is what's making the monster an equip. It's power is manipulating the face down card to where it is in fact a spell card and it is in fact face down.

This is the reason that this paticular "Equip Spell Card" can even be attached to Thousand Eyes face down in the first place. Its through the effect of TER thats giving this "spell" card special permission to be equipped face down, not through the effect of the equip as I think most of us were probably thinking.

Therfore from Nobleman's point of view its a correct target. It doesn't care if it's getting special permission from TER to be a face down equip. It's still face down.

If TER were flipped face down, TER's effect shuts off. If Skill Drain is negating TER, TER's effect shuts off. The so called equip is no longer being manipulated by TER's effect and therefore it's a monster in an illegal zone.
 
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Digital Jedi said:
Just to throw in my 2 cents into the discussion:
I can't see where a facedown monster absorbed by TER/Relinquishd could ever be treated as just an 'Equip" and not an "Equip Spell Card." That said, the monster is technically face-down and from the games mechanical standpoint it is face down.

When I first started typing this I was going to say Nobelman couldn't target for the same reasons that many pointed out here. But after considering the Skill Drain ruling I think I understand. TER's effect is what's making the monster an equip. It's power is manipulating the face down card to where it is in fact a spell card and it is in fact face down.

This is the reason that this paticular "Equip Spell Card" can even be attached to Thousand Eyes face down in the first place. Its through the effect of TER thats giving this "spell" card special permission to be equipped face down, not through the effect of the equip as I think most of us were probably thinking.

Therfore from Nobleman's point of view its a correct target. It doesn't care if it's getting special permission from TER to be a face down equip. It's still face down.

If TER were flipped face down, TER's effect shuts off. If Skill Drain is negating TER, TER's effect shuts off. The so called equip is no longer being manipulated by TER's effect and therefore it's a monster in an illegal zone.
Click to expand...

Ok, I DO agreee that TER's effect is what equips it and holds it there.... but.......
If you look at the new card text though, they took out the part that calls it an Equip Spell Card... now Im sure that Konami did that for a reason, and it is probably because it is NOT to be treated as an equip spell anymore. But it does have to take up a S/T card zone spot...hmm.... its a big contradiction, but they dont call it an Equip Spell anymore, and I think thats for a reason.
 
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I've always treated the equipped monster as a face-down spell card. We return the equipped monster to the owner if it were face down equipped to TER when Byser Shock is summoned. Maybe that is an easier question to submit to the Judge's list. Would it be returned by Byser Shock? If so then it is most obviously a face down spell card for purposes of classification and therefore would be appropriate to target with NOX.
 
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well if you look in the official FAQ under magic reflector you will see that you can activate magic reflector on something equipped to relinquished by relinquishes effect. Magic reflector can only be used on spells that remain
face up on the field. Nobleman of extermination can only be used on face down cards so i think it is safe to assume that you can't use nobleman of extermination on a monster equipped to relinquish
 
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ilikepiesodie said:
well if you look in the official FAQ under magic reflector you will see that you can activate magic reflector on something equipped to relinquished by relinquishes effect. Magic reflector can only be used on spells that remain
face up on the field. Nobleman of extermination can only be used on face down cards so i think it is safe to assume that you can't use nobleman of extermination on a monster equipped to relinquish
Click to expand...
The question at hand is this...If the card equipped to TER/REL is a face-down monster card, is it treated as a face-down Equip Spell card, or a face-up Equip Spell card?

I'm sure there's no question about how it's treated if the monster is face-up when equipped to TER/REL.
 
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Face-up equip spell of course. How can you equip a face-down card to a monster?

Collected Power ruling:
Monster Cards equipped to "Relinquished" or "Thousand-Eyes Restrict" can be moved to another "Relinquished or "Thousand-Eyes Restrict" but if either of these monsters is already equipped with a Monster Card, the new one is destroyed. If these moved to any other monster, the cards are destroyed.
Click to expand...

Collected powers text:

Select 1 face-up monster on the field. Equip this monster with all face-up Equip Spell Cards on the field. If the target of the Equip Spell Card is not correct, destroy the Equip Spell Card.
 
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The issue with all these quotes is none of them specify the 'equipped' monster being face-up or face-down. Or are we trying to infer that becuase is doesn't specify face-up or face-down, that ANY monster (face-up or face-down) 'equipped' to TER/REL is considered a face-up Equip Spell card?
 
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Okay, somehow we got onto the issue of what an equip is, rather than the issue of whether a face down monster equipped to TER is a face down or face up.

I think it's a ridiculous notion to think that the face down equipped to TER or Relinquished is anything other than an Equip Spell. There is no such thing as an "Equip Monster Card" which is the only other thing he could be (An Equip Trap?). There are only three card types in the game Monster, Spell, Trap. Even tokens fall into the "Monster Card" category. So how can the face down equip become treated as anything other than an equip spell. If it takes up a spell/trap zone than it is a spell/trap. Period.

As far as to, whether it is face up or face down, it's obviously face down. It is a "Face Down Equip." It has to be. It's not like a Union Monster which will remain an equip even when skill drain is on the field. Because its become a spell by it's own effect. Now its a spell and and Skill Drain cant touch it. But this TER monster is not equiping itself. And that the key to understanding this ruling. TER is equiping the monster to itself. And thats why the equip can be equipped face down. Theres no other reason.

Magic Reflector may prevent the said card from being destroyed, but Magic Reflector is self explanatory. It has to be face up. In this case, and based on the ruling for TER/Nobelman you could not put a "Reflector Counter" on it if the absorbed monster was face down.

Bottom Line:
Equip Cards do not equip themselves face down.
TER/Relinquished equips cards to themselves face down.
 
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Digital Jedi said:
There is no such thing as an "Equip Monster Card" which is the only other thing he could be (An Equip Trap?). There are only three card types in the game Monster, Spell, Trap. Even tokens fall into the "Monster Card" category. So how can the face down equip become treated as anything other than an equip spell. If it takes up a spell/trap zone than it isa spel/trap. Period.


Bottom Line:
Equip Cards do not equip themselves face down.
TER/Relinquished equip cards to themselves face down.
Click to expand...

So what about Union monsters??? they are equipable monsters... anyway.. I agree with the bottomline here, Equip Cards, no matter what they are do not equip themselves face down, (however TER, and Rel. do "absorb" them face down,...... )... or whatever... but still , it is either Treated as an equip spell, which that part of the card text was erattad out.... or it is just equipped by effect of themonster.... which is the case here... so if that is the case... then Nob. of Ext. CANT work on it weather it is face up or face down.... even though it DOES take up a S/T spot on the field.... Right???
 
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It looks as though my "Weird ruling of the tournament" thread should be an ongoing one <laffin> If nothing else it sure has caused us to examine a great deal and sparks good, thought provoking debate!
 
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So, after much debate all day long, this seems to be at almost a standstill ya know.. On one hand we have an official "ruling" saying its legal, and on the other we have Logic saying otherwise.... What is your opinion on this? Not particularly how you ruled, but opinion wise, do you think the official ruling is logical????
 
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kingpinopie said:
So what about Union monsters??? they are equipable monsters... anyway.. I agree with the bottomline here, Equip Cards, no matter what they are do not equip themselves face down, (however TER, and Rel. do "absorb" them face down,...... )... or whatever... but still , it is either Treated as an equip spell, which that part of the card text was erattad out.... or it is just equipped by effect of themonster.... which is the case here... so if that is the case... then Nob. of Ext. CANT work on it weather it is face up or face down.... even though it DOES take up a S/T spot on the field.... Right???
Click to expand...
Nobelman of Extermination can work on it. Just because they errata'd out the word "Spell" doesn't change it from being a spell. I think UDE/Konami. or whoever handles that aspect, just expects us to use our common sense. Even if if TER is the one responsible for it's unusual equipment ability it still a Spell card as long as TER has it's hooks on it.
 
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