Enemy Controller question

[kansashoops]

I just want to make sure this works as I think it does:

Opponent has one or more Scapegoat tokens in face up defense position. I have D.D. Assailant in attack position. I declare an attack on a token and ask for a response (assuming that my opponent has one or more cards set in his spell/trap zone). Opponent declines. I then chain Enemy Controller from my hand to the declaration of the attack, switching the token to attack position, and D.D. Assailant destroys him and does 1700 damage.

This is all kosher, correct?

 

[Jason_C]

But the opponent can have priority, can't they? Can you summon a monster / draw a card / attack when you don't have priority? Of course not. You do these things with our priority. And yeah, debates rock.

-pssvr

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

No, I can do these things because as the Turn Player I am the ONLY one that CAN do them! It has nothing to do with Priority. Can my opponent draw a card at the same time I can during MY Draw Phase?..No. Can my opponent Normal Summon or Set (not by an effect) a monster during MY Main Phase?..No. Can my opponent declare an attack during MY Battle Phase?..No.

WHY? Because THEY are NOT the Turn Player!..lol.

But yes it has something to do with priority because there are many other things that could happen during any phase.

But your opponent can activate Trap cards and quick-play spell cards at any time during your turn, except when you have priority.

You can't declare an attack until you have resolved everything that needs to be resolved during the start step, i.e. you can't declare an attack until you have priority to do so.

You can't summon a monster in response to a chain resolving.. so you have to wait until you have priority to perform an action in a non-response timing before you may summon a monster.

 

[novastar]

I agree, but you're 'responding' to the end/beginning of each phase. So there would be a response point for each one. Once the 'timing' for that response point is over, you continue on as normal. So if we're going from my Standby Phase to my Main Phase 1, then there would be a response point at the end of the Standby Phase, and a response point at the beginning of Main Phase 1. Then we move into Main Phase 1 normally. Again, it MY Main Phase 1 so my oppnent can't just Summon or Set a monster, it's MY Main Phase..lol. I am the ONLY player that can do this at this time. Where is the Priority in that?

Well, the Draw Phase is unfortunately not the greatest example to use...since nothing manual can happen prior to the draw.

The Main Phase however can be used...

I have never really believed this idea that the ending of a phase/step or the beginning of a phase/step is an actual "event" and thus does not create response timing. Ending a Phase is simply an abandonment of Priority by both players on a non response point, you cant just keep passing back and forth. That to me is not an "event" at all, just a series of passes, the same as chaining.

Back to Priority at the start of a Phase/Step. When you enter the Main Phase, what choices do you have?

- Normal (or Special) Summon or Set a monster
- Activate an effect of any Spell Speed (theoretically)
- Abandon Priority to the opponent (technically calling for the end of the Phase)

That signifies to me a Non Response chain point, not a Response Point.

Specifically because of the fact that you can Normal Summon AND because you can activate Spell Speed 1 effects like Pot of Greed etc. and by now we should know that both of those actions cannot be performed using response timing (because they are too slow).

Just my thoughts

EDIT: damn...DaGuy beat me to it...lol

 

[Jason_C]

Back to Priority at the start of a Phase/Step. When you enter the Main Phase, what choices do you have?

- Normal (or Special) Summon or Set a monster
- Activate an effect of any Spell Speed (theoretically)
- Abandon Priority to the opponent (technically calling for the end of the Phase)

That signifies to me a Non Response chain point, not a Response Point.

YES!!! YES!!!!!!

Then you agree with me that by passing priority, you are effectively surrendering to the opponent the chance to activate something OR END THE PHASE?
-pssvr

 

[anthonyj]

For practical purposes the only thing that both the turn player and non-turn player can both do in a given Phase that you would need to define as who has first right to do are things that create a chain (Traps, Quickplay Spells). And that is how Priority has been discussed is this first right to create a chain. Nova is correct however that the turn player goes first in all situations (SEGOC chains for instance). And if we had any non chain creating events that both players had access to do it would fall to the Turn Player to have first right to perform that action before the Non-Turn Player.

 

[novastar]

YES!!! YES!!!!!!

Then you agree with me that by passing priority, you are effectively surrendering to the opponent the chance to activate something OR END THE PHASE?
-pssvr

Of course i agree...

And to correct my statement concerning Priority...

The most concrete general concept of Priority that i can put together from everything ive ever read is that:

- Priority is the right to go first, that either player can possess.

- There is only one thing in YGO that actually uses Priority, and thats manually activating an effect.

- Performing an action (ie. Draw, Summon, Declare an attack), while not a use of Priority, still requires you to have it in order to perform it.

- Priority is also used to determine determining the order of effects going on a chain simultaniously (Triggers).

- The 2 main differences between Turn Player Priority and the Opponent's Priority (on your turn), is that to Turn Player always recieves it first, and the Opponent is more limited in what he/she can do.

- IF the Turn Player gives up Priority, the opponent does in fact recieve it and can choose to go first or not.

After that it is regular chaining...

In the end of course, this is an evolution, a WIP for sure.

 

[Tkwiget]

Simon, I think you're getting too literal with the game phases here.

Entering and leaving game phases DO create response windows. However, during your turn the opponent can't draw a card on your turn during your Draw Phase no because it's the Draw Phase of your turn, because of the fact it's a simple game rule.

Ask yourself this you guys, if the Turn Player used priority or not, would Drop Off still work on him/her in chain to a card? After all, you're still IN the Draw Phase and cards are being activated in response to the card being drawn.

Unless I'm blowing this up too much. -_-

<goes and eats his college lunch...>

 

[Jason_C]

I can't understand why you would have response windows to entering / leaving phases. Once you've entered a phase, you've entered a phase, and once both players pass in a non-responsive window, the phase is over. No last minute opportunity to change you mind there. Have a nice lunch.

-pssvr

 

[novastar]

Ask yourself this you guys, if the Turn Player used priority or not, would Drop Off still work on him/her in chain to a card? After all, you're still IN the Draw Phase and cards are being activated in response to the card being drawn.

Yes it does. It doesn't have to be directly responding, all that is required is that it be in the Response Chain to the draw.

Saying that ending a Phase/Step creates response timing is like saying that passing creates response timing...it doesn't make sense.

However, an arguement could be made for the start of a Phase. But in YGO it seems less likely...

 

[Jason_C]

An argument could be made that there is a priority point after the beginning of the phase, but not that it is in response to the phase beginning. It is merely the aftermath of both players passing in the previous phase.

pssvr

 

[skey23]

Ok, we need to come up with a 'clear' and 'concise' answer to this whole discussion....any volunteers?

 

[Jason_C]

Player one begins his / turn by drawing a card, and by default receives priority.
Both players pass, on to standby phase.
Player one retains priority and passes.
Player two also passes, and on to main phase.
Player one still has priority from the last phase, and uses it to summon a monster.
Player one retains priority after the summon since it does not use the chain.
Player one passes, player two passes.
And on to battle phase.

How was that?
-pssvr

 

[anthonyj]

Player one begins his / turn by drawing a card, and by default receives priority.
Both players pass, on to standby phase.
Player one retains priority and passes.
Player two also passes, and on to main phase.
Player one still has priority from the last phase, and uses it to summon a monster.
Player one retains priority after the summon since it does not use the chain.
Player one passes, player two passes.
And on to battle phase.

How was that?
-pssvr

Absolutely positively Wrong!

Let's say the monster summoned was Blue-Eyes White Dragon. You can't activate a normal Spell from in hand for the response chain so he passes Priority to allow Player Two to activate Bottomless Trap Hole, or Torrential Tribute or whatever else. Player Two does not choose to respond. Now Player One activates Burst Stream of Destruction. But wait, according to pssvr we have enterred the Battle Phase due to passing on the response chain. So how could Player One play a normal Spell after he has summoned a monster?

That's because passing priority to respond doesn't end a phase.

Both players agreeing to end a phase ends a phase. If Player One suggests ending the Phase and Player Two chooses to activate Call of the Haunted, Player One can chain or allow Call to resolve, and then he can activate Fissure to destroy a monster. He didn't give up anything. He suggested ending the Phase and the opponent took the opportunity to activate something else, that was not an agreement to end the Phase so the Phase continues as normal. Both players must agree to end the Phase to go into the next Phase. That is how it works.

 

[skey23]

Player one begins his / turn by drawing a card, and by default receives priority.
Both players pass, on to standby phase.
Player one retains priority and passes.
Player two also passes, and on to main phase.
Player one still has priority from the last phase, and uses it to summon a monster.
Player one retains priority after the summon since it does not use the chain.
Player one passes, player two passes.
And on to battle phase.

How was that?
-pssvr

Does anybody ELSE wanna have a go at it!...lol

 

[Jason_C]

Thank you for the comment, skey.

Yes, I was wrong. But I am still right. Huh? Well, I mean I know, but sometimes my hands don't always type what my brain tells them to.

-pssvr

 

[BenjaminMS]

Player one begins his / turn by drawing a card, and by default receives priority.
Both players pass, on to standby phase.
Player one retains priority and passes.
Player two also passes, and on to main phase.
Player one still has priority from the last phase, and uses it to summon a monster.
Player one retains priority after the summon since it does not use the chain.
Player one passes, player two passes.
And on to battle phase.

How was that?
-pssvr

Just change one thing: change "And on to the battle phase" in "Player one starts a new chain or continues to another phase (Battle phase or Main Phase 2)". Then it should be right I think.

 

[Jason_C]

Player one begins his / turn by drawing a card, and by default receives priority.
Both players pass, on to standby phase.
Player one retains priority and passes.
Player two also passes, and on to main phase.
Player one still has priority from the last phase, and uses it to summon a monster.
Player one retains priority after the summon since it does not use the chain.
Player one passes, player two passes.
Summon response window closed. P1 passes.
P2 passes.
And on to battle phase.

-pssvr

 

[novastar]

Ok, we need to come up with a 'clear' and 'concise' answer to this whole discussion....any volunteers?

Which discussion...the first question? or the concept of response and priority?

Well its tough to generalize because some Phases work slightly different than others.

 

[anthonyj]

Just change one thing: change "And on to the battle phase" in "Player one starts a new chain or continues to another phase (Battle phase or Main Phase 2)". Then it should be right I think.

Or summons another monster, etc. etc.

The answer is if neither player intends to do something else in this Phase then you will indeed agree to move on. It just isn't a by-product of passing priority in any way.

 

[novastar]

The answer is if neither player intends to do something else in this Phase then you will indeed agree to move on. It just isn't a by-product of passing priority in any way.

The problem is that mechanically thats not sound.

You have a Non Response point:

- The Turn Player either chooses to do something or pass on Priority.

* Keep in mind that passing at this point is infact calling for the end of the Phase/Step

- Then my opponent can do something or pass on Priority.

* The Phase/Step is over

You cannot just keep passing back and forth over and over again.

What im getting at is... anytime a player passes on a Non Response point he/she is essentially agreeing to end a Phase/Step.

To put it in a "real world" example.

< Main Phase >

{Non Response Chain} (Priority given to the Turn Player)

Turn Player: "I'm not gonna do anything...i pass to you."
Opponent: "Well neither am I...i pass too"

* That means the Phase/Step is over

</ Main Phase >

They both aGreed to do nothing for that Phase. It doesn't seem correct to think that they could just keep going back and forth until one person fliches.

I'd like to see this Officially addressed.