ChaosMachine
New Member
If Jinzo is one of the monsters special summoned by return from the different dimension will he negate them being removed from play at the end of the turn?
Jinzo and RFTDD
- Thread starter ChaosMachine
- Start date
Dillie-O
Council of Heroes
aack! I can't run away from it wherever I go!
But I'm in the boat of the "player being prevented" vs. the "monster being prevented" from attacking. Granted wording becomes subject due to translations, but not the difference between Threatening Roar and Gravity Bind (yes, one is normal, one is continous, but look at the texts 8^D), one prevents monsters from attacking, one prevents players from declaring an attack. Up to this point, there never has been much of a distinction between the two, but I think it was always there.
Also consider the following: If a player declares an attack with BLS-EotB and it is negated due to Magic Cylinder, can the player use BLS's RFP effect now instead? No, he can't. Why? Because the player declared an attack with the monster already. It points to a distinction to me.
John Danker made a nice metaphor over in the Realms between the the bullet (monster) and pulling the trigger (you). Maybe I should go find that one... 8^D
But I'm in the boat of the "player being prevented" vs. the "monster being prevented" from attacking. Granted wording becomes subject due to translations, but not the difference between Threatening Roar and Gravity Bind (yes, one is normal, one is continous, but look at the texts 8^D), one prevents monsters from attacking, one prevents players from declaring an attack. Up to this point, there never has been much of a distinction between the two, but I think it was always there.
Also consider the following: If a player declares an attack with BLS-EotB and it is negated due to Magic Cylinder, can the player use BLS's RFP effect now instead? No, he can't. Why? Because the player declared an attack with the monster already. It points to a distinction to me.
John Danker made a nice metaphor over in the Realms between the the bullet (monster) and pulling the trigger (you). Maybe I should go find that one... 8^D
Dillie-O
Council of Heroes
The common argument when BLS came out was "Hey my attack was 'negated' by Magic Cylider, so it was as if it never happened. I should be able to use the RFP effect instead."
While the attack was indeed negated, the declaration of hte attack was not, which prevented the player from being able to use the secondary attack instead.
While the attack was indeed negated, the declaration of hte attack was not, which prevented the player from being able to use the secondary attack instead.
o_0? >_<
I always thought the argument was that Magic Cylinder only caused the attack to fail, but didn't prevent it from ever occuring. Hence why one can't summon again after Horn of Heaven.
-pssvr
I always thought the argument was that Magic Cylinder only caused the attack to fail, but didn't prevent it from ever occuring. Hence why one can't summon again after Horn of Heaven.
-pssvr
Negation of an attempt doesn't mean the attempt never occured.
The same concept can be applied to negating a Normal Summon... you can only perform one, and even if it is negated, you are prevented from performing another one during the same turn.
The game still keeps track of these things... The ability of a monster to attack normally once per turn, is not a built-in effect of the monster, it is a game given ability based on the rules.
So when BLS declares an attack, the game makes a note of it, regardless of whether the attack is successful or not. Effects will always check the current status of the game to varify requirements, which is why, even if the attack is negated, the game state says that he declared...and the removal effect cannot be used.
Hope that helps
The same concept can be applied to negating a Normal Summon... you can only perform one, and even if it is negated, you are prevented from performing another one during the same turn.
The game still keeps track of these things... The ability of a monster to attack normally once per turn, is not a built-in effect of the monster, it is a game given ability based on the rules.
So when BLS declares an attack, the game makes a note of it, regardless of whether the attack is successful or not. Effects will always check the current status of the game to varify requirements, which is why, even if the attack is negated, the game state says that he declared...and the removal effect cannot be used.
Hope that helps
John Danker
Administrator
My last comment on the Realms ...and one that I hadn't considered before dealing with Wildheart and Rfdd was that at first glance it seems Wildheart is ignoring the condition of Rfdd....which seemed really odd, I didn't know any monster that could ignore a conditon. After more thought though I can't help but wonder if Wildheart isn't ignoring the condition of Rfdd but since it was part of the activation of Rfdd it ignores the entire card effect......whatcha think? Does it hold water?
Wildheart can't ignore the condition because it doesn't have any effect while it's not on the field. (If any one mentions Elemental Mistress Doriado, I'm gonna through more than a few monkeys...) Hehe... So I think it will still be summoned, if you were implying otherwise.
Once on the field, it then ignores the reverbrating effect or RFP-ing again. This is because the effect, while not activating (and hence not subject to Jinzo) still "emerges from a dormant state" </new unofficial game term> thereby allowing Wildheart to be unaffected by it. IMHO.
-pssvr
Once on the field, it then ignores the reverbrating effect or RFP-ing again. This is because the effect, while not activating (and hence not subject to Jinzo) still "emerges from a dormant state" </new unofficial game term> thereby allowing Wildheart to be unaffected by it. IMHO.
-pssvr
BenjaminMS
The Kozaky show
pssvr said:
Conclusion after all you said: Wildheart is affected by Return from the Different Dimension when he is RFG-ed.
However, once the field, he 'negates' for himself the lingering condition of RftDD.
And what about Elemental Mistress Doriado?
John Danker
Administrator
pssvr said:
I'm not sure if what you said and I said are the same things or not.
I'm saying that Wildheart might / can't ignore a conditon if it were set before Wildheart was on the field...but since Wildheart was part of the activation of Rfdd it ignores the whole card effect. We both agree that Wildheart can't ignore Rfdd while it's out of play.....I don't know, I'm just theorizing...don't take any of what I'm saying too seriously.
Complex_Mind
Deck Mechanic
I can't believe this stupid argument has gone on for this long.
Let's look at it like this, ignore Wildheart's effect.
A monster is special summoned through RFTDD and later on Book of MoonED. The monster goes back with all the other's at the end phase, THE CARD goes back. Not the monster. You have to understand it's just like Magical Scientist. They go back no matter what, even if they aren't affected by it anymore.
Let's look at it like this, ignore Wildheart's effect.
A monster is special summoned through RFTDD and later on Book of MoonED. The monster goes back with all the other's at the end phase, THE CARD goes back. Not the monster. You have to understand it's just like Magical Scientist. They go back no matter what, even if they aren't affected by it anymore.
Magical Scientist returns cards. RftDD removes cards. They are two entirely different events. When a card is returned to the fusion deck, that is something that is predetermined, that the same force which brought a card to the field will ultimately remove it from the field. To RFP a card is entirely different. It is an event, a chainable, unaffected-by-able event. It is not predetermined by the event of summoning the cards.
Please do not call this debate stupid anymore.
-pssvr
Please do not call this debate stupid anymore.
-pssvr
Complex_Mind
Deck Mechanic
I'm not going to stop calling this debate stupid.
It IS stupid.
Now go by the rulings or contact upperdeck. This thread has been pointless and off-topic (it was originally about Jinzo and RFTDD) Now I'd advise people to email upperdeck about the issue because all of you insist on staying on your own sides. This IS stupid and go ahead, pssvr, report me again for absolutely NO reason aside from speaking my mind. Watch how much I care.
It IS stupid.
Now go by the rulings or contact upperdeck. This thread has been pointless and off-topic (it was originally about Jinzo and RFTDD) Now I'd advise people to email upperdeck about the issue because all of you insist on staying on your own sides. This IS stupid and go ahead, pssvr, report me again for absolutely NO reason aside from speaking my mind. Watch how much I care.
Then let ME encourage you NOT to refer to this debate as stupid.Complex_Mind said:
It has been a long standing tradition at CoG to debate subjects for the purpose of better understanding card effects and how they work. This better serves the gaming community as a whole and is largely the reason why so many of our members have exceled in thier understanding and become Level 2 Judges and higher. Debates like this are far from stupid, but the exact opposite because one mechainc debated in detail can clarify another issue that we may have never thought of until the situation arises.
We also encourage people to speak thier minds at CoG, but we must ask you to refrain form making others, who don't think it's stupid, from feeling uncomfortable. The only stupid question, is the one that remains unasked.
Complex_Mind
Deck Mechanic
Digital Jedi said:
Ok then. Let me ask YOU. In the four pages of this thread, Where has it gone? I'll answer for you. Nowhere. Everyone is sticking to their opinions and no one is LEARNING anything. Why doesn't someone step up and just email upperdeck for an explanation obviously no one HERE can give? I'm sorry if I'm offending anyone. I'm only saying what needs to be said.
The main issue here is that you need not do it such an agressive manner. Please leave word like "stupid" out of it. You can say what needs to be said without using negative words like that.Complex_Mind said:
Many of these questions have been discussed in other threads before, although at different angles, and many questions have already been sent to the Judges List. However, the Judges List answers ou questions when and if they feel like it. There is no harm continuing our debate until that time, if it ever comes.
Also, your statement that nothing has come from this discussion is incorrect. You forget that there are many who have even less knoweledge then you and I who are viewing this discussion and learning something new. Discussions like this also help to sharpen our teaching skills and keep them sharp.
But calling the discussion stupid insinuates that we are stupid for discussing it. That is something that we are not going to allow.